Communicating with GSD going deaf

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-05 17:15:12 UTC

HOWEDY elegy you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin punk thug coward active acute chronic
life-long INCURABLE DOG MURDERIN MENTAL
CASE and Pit Bull RESCUER,

A massaging collar then :-)

There we go.

i used to put up with harvey biting me
in the ass in his pre-meal glee :)

That so? You MURDERED your DEAD DOG
Harve after IT went into INTRACTIBLE PSYCHO-
NEUROTIC SEIZURES from you ABUSIN IT by
lockin IT in a box and IGNORING ITS CRIES
and puttin DIAPERS ON IT to PREVENT IT
from PISSIN ALL OVER YOUR HOWES <{}: ~ ( >

the young dogs have to wait in their crates
for their food (self control, we work on it!)

THAT'S INSANE, elegy; WHAT'S to "work on"?

You lock your dogs in a box and offer and
withold BRIBES which MAKES THEM
INSANE an then *you* MURDER them <{}: ~ ( >

elegy T-O-R-T-U-R-E-D, I-N-T-I-M-I-D-A-T-E-D, an
M-U-R-D-E-R-E-D her last FOUR *(4) CONSECUTIVE
DEAD "RESCUE" dogs in the most DIABOLICAL ways
known only to devHOWET koehler "trainers" <{}: ~ ( >

LIKE THIS:

HOWE COME does elegy set her INFORMATIVE
posts to EXXXPIRE so there AIN'T NO RECORD?

HOWE COME would these EXXXPERTS set
their INFORMATIVE POSTS to EXXXPIRE in
six days like HOWE matty a.k.a. Rocky, elegy,
montana, diddler, professora melanie chang,
cindy title moore of k9web.com, marquis de
"READ KOEHLER FOR CONTENT" shaw
and not so happy, not so handsome, not so
gentle jackass, not even jack morrison, a.k.a.
BIG DADDY a.k.a.DOGMAN a.k.a. tommy
sorenson of sorenson's Retriever PUPPY
MILL and SHOCK COLLAR SALES??

Are they EMBARRASSED by their own words,
the PATHETIC MISERABLE STINKIN ROTTEN
LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN PUNK THUG COWARD
ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LIFE-LONG INCURABLE
MENTAL CASES FRAUDS an SCAM ARTISTS?

LIKE THIS:

tommy wrote:

From: ***@i1.net (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Re: Koehler's Usefulness--A Concluding Assessment

This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has
TOTALLY refused to engage me in debate,
preferring mudslinging, hyperbole, distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely
out of context, instead.

What lying hypocrites these hand-wringers are!

The most consistent argument among Koehler's
defenders is based on a questionable assumption
that such "drastic" measures are effective in
"extreme" cases where other methods fail.

------------------------

SEE?

LIKE THIS:

Not so handsome, not so gentle, not so manly, not so
happy jackass not even morrison aka dogman aka BIG
DADDY tommy sorenson sez:

"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.

Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.

Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.

If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.

When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."

I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."

"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.

A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens

At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

From: ***@i1.net (Dogman)
Date: 1999/01/15
Subject: Re: Another mouthy lab

Get this book:

"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete

If you can't find it locally, you can obtain it
through my Web site (see below).

You'll need it for more than just the usual puppy
"mouthing" problems, anyway.

And good luck with your Lab puppy!
--
Dogman

------------------------

From: ***@deltaville.net (Michael Erskine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:09:05 -0700

Subject: My GSD bit me.

The question:

I have a four year old male GSD. He growls
at me sometimes. When he growls at me he
stares me in the face and lays his ears back.

The New Skete books say that the dog should not be
allowed to do that. They suggest shaking down the
dog by grabing the dog on the sides of his neck and
picking him off his front feet, then giving the dog the
same sort of treatment the dog would give another if
it were challenging him.

Namely getting in the dogs face and letting
the dog know you are the alpha dog.

Well, my dog bit me clearly he felt that I was not
convincing enough or he bit me out of fear.

Anyone got ideas on what to do with this dog that might
help him to decide that he wants to follow and that he
has nothing to fear from me?

----------------------

From: Charlie Wilkes <***@users.easynews.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:21:14 GMT
Subject: Re: My GSD bit me.

You need to improve your acting skills.

Get a werewolf suit with blood-drenched fangs
and claw gloves and THEN go after your dog.

Knock the shit out of him and don't
be afraid to crack some ribs.

Then yank the mask off and
shout "SURPRISE! IT'S ME!"

I guarantee you and your dog will have a
new relationship based on mutual respect.

Keep in mind that the monks of New
Skete were pre-Lon-Chaney.

Charlie

-----------------------

matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:

"Rocky" <***@rocky-dog.com> wrote

For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

---------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

SEE?

but harv was an old man so he
got to play by old man rules.

You mean, LIKE THIS?:

And NHOWE, let's get on with the elegy murderin
her own DEAD RESCUE dogs SHOWE:

Re: homer bit me :(

i'm really disappointed in myself, because i wigged
out on him for it,

I'm not sure you should be. Maybe it's because I'm used
to dogs that'll keep pushing barriers just to find the limits
(if any), but the bottom line is that Homer did something
completely unacceptable (for whatever good and justified
reason) and discovered that, yes, there is an upper
boundary beyond which his new human gets a bit testy.
That's a good thing for a dog of any age to learn.

i worry that he reacted out of fear
and i gave him more reason to fear.

luce is a huge barrier-pusher. i've wigged out
on her a few times, too, and that i don't think
was necessarily a bad thing. but with this guy,
because he's kinda timid and i think kinda
fearful, i feel bad about.

i put him in his crate until i calmed down enough
to not do anything else stupid.

Well, see, you learned something valuable.
Homer learned something valuable.
It's all good. Neither of you will need
to repeat this particular lesson.
I hope so, anyway.

i put a harness on him and he seems much more
comfortable with having that held. he simply
cannot be handle-less until he learns things like
come, stay, and to go in his crate.
--
And now, each night I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number. (Amiri Baraka)
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in the headers

-----------------------------------

Subject: i don't know what to do
From: elegy
Date: Monday, February 26, 2007

homer full-on attacked me tonight. multiple puncture
wounds on my hand, torn pants, dog that kept coming.

he meant it tonight. he meant to hurt
me, not just to say "i don't like this".

i was trying to teach him to down using a lure and
he totally and completely wasn't getting it at all, so
i was trying to physically show him what i wanted.

yeah. guess not.

i don't know what to do.

i have always said that i WILL NOT tolerate a dog who
bites, that i WILL NOT have a dog like that in my house.

it's easy to say when you're not faced with that, eh?
--
And now, each night I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number. (Amiri Baraka)
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in the header

---------------------

Homer 1994 - 03.01.2007"
brothers and sisters i bid you beware
of giving your heart to a dog to tear

i put homer to sleep yesterday.

it was quite possibly the hardest thing i've ever done.

monday night i was trying to teach him to down using a
food lure. he wasn't getting it, so i put a hand on him to
try to encourage him to down. he attacked me, biting me
twice on the hand, and then when i stood up and backed
away, he came after me more and bit me on the leg as well.

i was shocked and devestated and a hundred other things.

i ended up emailing my trainer (who has
turned out to be a very kind friend) and
she called me and i spent an hour on
the phone with her crying.

she doesn't deal with aggression cases,
but she listened to me and talked me down.

i hardly slept that night.

tuesday i took homer in to work with me and
had the vet feel his neck. i didn't think it was
a reaction due to pain but i had to check it out.

the vet put his hands on the sides of homer's
head and manipulated his head around. homer
didn't show any signs of pain or discomfort. he
went through the motions some more.

homer flipped out, with no warning, extremely
violently. it took him a long time (it felt like a
lifetime. it was probably around 3 minutes) to
calm down enough that the vet could take his
hands off of homer without anybody getting hurt.

i went home for lunch and called a behaviorist.

i spent a lot of the day reading the brenda aloff
aggression book and the karen overall behavior book.

that night the behaviorist called me and i told
her what had happened and she asked questions
and i answered them as best i could.

she gave him a pretty poor prognosis.

everything that she said made sense to me,
and nothing she said was earth-shattering or
even really anything that i didn't already know.

this morning i took him in and held him close
and cried into his fur and told him how much
i love him and let him go.

he was a dangerous dog. he bit unpredictably
and with no warning. he was a love, a snugglebug,
a sweet sweet dog as long as you didn't do anything
he didn't want done.

but if you tried to "make" him do something
he didn't want to do, all bets were off. his
reaction could be a snap or it could be an
over-the-top meltdown.

i couldn't live with a dog like that.

i *will not* live with a dog like that.

i've spent the last three days crying my eyes out.

i never imagined i could get that attached to a
dog who i had for all of 12 days and who bit me
several times during those12 days.

but i was. i loved him.

i loved him ferociously, but i had to let him go.

for his sake.

for my sake.

for the sake of luce and mushroom.

i feel horrible. heartbroken. guilty. angry.

and yet i don't regret him, not for one
moment, despite how things turned out.

Replies: 2 comments

i'm sorry, but human aggression is a deal-breaker, especially unpredictable,
unwarned human-aggression.

there is too much at stake and too much to lose.

Posted by e @ 03/26/2007 06:49 AM EST

You were just as unpredictable to Homer.
Shame on you for giving him only 12 days.

-----------------------

my little poodle was ancient and skinny as could be. she
wore a sweater in the house in the winter, a t-shirt in
spring and fall, and had a fleece coat to wear outside in
winter, but she sure never turned down a walk.

AND THEN YOU MURDERED IT FOR BEIN AFRAID.

LIKE THIS:

"elegy" <***@shattering.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

i never meant to own a poodle. i used to take those
online "what breed of dog is right for you tests"
and get poodle and go back and change my answers.

i especially never meant to own a little poodle.

sometimes life turns out to be the last thing you expect.

the first time i met her i had just started working
overnights by myself. she was hospitalized with
pneumonia and an ugly anal gland abscess. she
barked and carried on and peed in her cage every
twenty minutes and pretty much drove me crazy
all night and i absolutely couldn't stand her.

then one of our doctors brought her back to the
hospital for good. her owner had alzheimers and
had to go into a home, and pam said she'd take
siren and try to find her a home. the womans
other dog was an easy rehome- a 2 year old mini
poodle, cute as a button. but siren was 16, senile,
with advanced heart disease, not great kidneys,
full cataracts in both eyes, and no potty training
whatsoever.

she stayed about 2 months in the kennels. she
grew on me. i would leave her out with me at
night so she'd get some exercise and some
attention. one night i mentioned to the vet who
had brought her in that i wished i could take
her but was afraid i couldn't afford her.

she'd need multiple medications, regular bloodwork,
x-rays, etc. the vet offered to pay for her medical bills
if i'd give her a good home.

she told me she didn't expect siren to live more than
a year. she lasted 18 months and 4 days. she could
have kept going physically. but her little brain had
just run out. the past two weeks she's just been terrible.

she was pacing nonstop and wouldn't or couldn't stop.

i'd pick her up and try to bring her back to bed and
quiet her down, and her legs would just keep pacing
as i held her.

she was getting lost and stuck in corners, and at walls,
and in weird places i can't figure out how she got into.
she hardly knew where she was or what was going on
anymore.

and when i asked her what she wanted, all i got was
an overwhelming feeling of apathy.

so i took her in tonight after appointments and we
put her to sleep. it was one of the hardest decisions
i've ever had to make.

i think i've been crying for a week. i thought i was
cried out, but when the vet was giving her the
injection and started crying,

i lost it.

i'm home now and just feel so empty. i have to
figure out what to do with all her things. her bed.
her coats. i feel so lost.

they got me beautiful flowers at work and i keep
looking at them and tearing up again because i
am just so touched.

she was a special dog and she touched a lot of
people's lives. i miss her very much.

goodnight my little space princess. sleep sweet
and remember me in your dreams.
<Loading Image...

> > ---

petey was a pit bull.
http://shattering.org

-------------------

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:44:47 -0500, elegy

everything is going swimmingly....

Oh my gosh he's a handsome dude, and I am glad to
hear that everyone is settling down and settling in!
Good for you!

thanks. i'm amazed by how quickly he settled in here,
to be honest. i thought it was going to take much longer
for the young dogs to settle down around him.
--
And now, each night I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number. (Amiri Baraka)
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in the headers

02/25/2007: "the new dog."

Last saturday i adopted a 12 1/2 year old mixed breed
dog from a local shelter. my best guess is pit bull x
beagle (does that make him a piggle?). there's definitely
beagle in there.

anyway, he was at the shelter because his owners got
divorced. it was so cold there and he was so sad and
shivering and it was just terrible. it took me a long time
and several trips to see him before i made a decision,
but in the end, i had to save him.

so homer is here now, 18" at the shoulder, a skinny
37 pounds. he's doing great. it was a little rocky at
the beginning, because the wild young dogs want
to play with him, and he doesn't appreciate their
demolition derby style of play. everybody's getting
used to everybody else though, now, and life is much
more peaceful.

homer's favorite thing in the world is
the red dog bed in my livingroom.

he's such a great dog. old dogs are so often
overlooked in the shelter, but he's fantastic.

he's housebroken, quiet in the crate, polite on a
leash, friendly with people, tolerent of other dogs,
doesn't bark, doesn't chew, just wants to snuggle.

i am so glad he's here. and he's got cool ears.

------------------

AN THEN SHE BRIBED CHOKED an MURDERED IT.

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:27:15 +0200 (CEST), Anonymous

Puppy is about 7 months old. I'm trying to
teach him "come." Sometimes he does it fine.
Other times, he just sits there, looks at me
and ignores me. It is extremely frustrating.

That ain't hardly as frustrating as MURDERIN your own
last TWO DEAD "RESCUE" dogs on accHOWENTA you
ABUSED them, is it, elegy, you pathetic miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active accute
chronic life long incurable mental case.

this is my favorite link for teaching a reliable recall
<http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html>

Yeah? Your friend Mistress Shirley is a B&D/
S&M SPECIALIST who can't train the come
command withHOWET her trusty SHOCK
COLLAR you pathetic lyin animal murderin ignorameHOWES <{}: ~ ( >

Here's your PAL, MISTRESS shirly chong,
crapHOWES CLICKER TRAINER:

"To be effective as a positive punisher, I set the level
of shock at a level high enough (in my best guesstimation)
to be unpleasant to the dog. I want the dog to startle a
bit and even yelp when they get shocked.

No, this is not pleasant.

After each shock, I call the dog again (because many
dogs tend to panic when something mysteriously reaches
out and stings them)."

But don't go away yet, my pretty flying monkey,
there's MOORE:

"If the dog is still refusing the recall, then I escalate my
aversive a bit--usually, to taking two big handfuls of ruff
as I move backwards.

Some dogs do get "long line wise.""

No, some trainers are just long line stupid.

You can't force a dog to come.

"That is, they never refuse a recall while on the long line
but when the long line is gone, they are unreliable even if
the handler started with close recalls off lead in a familiar
(and safely fenced) area."

That's because you can't teach compliance with
force no matter HOWE gently you try to force.

ANY force, even verbal intimidation, will cause
the opposition reflex to compel the dog to do
other than what you want.

Too bad you sharp trainers here don't understand
that. It's called positive thigmotaxis, and it's just as
valid with a choke collar as it is with a mental attitude.

Force causes the dog to not respond.

"IF the dog never ever refuses a recall while on the long
line, no matter what the distraction (and I am pretty good
at devising distractions for this test!), then I move to a
shock collar."

That's a competent clicker trainer, by golly!

Where do you people come off with that kind of crap?

Here's Miss Shirly, the CLICKER TRAINER you recommended to us:

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong <eithne @forest.pcpartner.net>

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 02:16:30 -0500
Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

Welcome back, and it sure did not take you
long to pick up on the dog training thread.
As you can see, you commentary was missed.

Thanks!

Yes, there's nothing more likely to lure me out of lurk
mode than a training question. I'd planned to lurk for
a couple weeks to get up to speed again but before I
knew it, the keyboard was rattling.

OB:bdsm Do you give advice on "puppy training" too?

Sure! I may not have a clue as to what I'm talking
about but that never stops me.

Shirley eithne @direcway.com http://www.shirleychong.com

------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong <***@forest.pcpartner.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:48:53 -0500

Subject: Re: pregnancy and S&M?

I just learned I'm pregnant, and while in most
respects, I find it to be excellent news, I'm a
little concerned about play time.
I'm a fairly heavy masochist used to frequent
beatings and torture, and have held back from
play so far until I get a little more advanced,
just to be safe. But if I make it healthily through
the first trimester, does anyone have any advice
for pregnancy whompings? (Besides the fairly
obvious "no more gut punches" rule :)

Congratulations!

My advice is to ask your doctor. Because your
doctor is the one who knows your specific conditions,
because there's a lot of advice out there of varying
quality (including this!) and because it's important
to have peace of mind that you are doing the right
thing at a time like this.

Most doctors have heard it all. If they haven't
heard it all, they should have. <G> If you have
reason to believe that your doctor may react
badly then maybe that's an indication this isn't
the doctor for you.

Better to find this out now rather than when you are in
labor and not in the mood to holler at some rank narrow
mindedness and unable to gather your dignity and march out.

Those hospital gowns just don't cut it for dignified exits
unless you back out the door and then there's the little
problem of who is out in the hall.

Much easier in the long run to tell the truth.

Shirley

----------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: ***@aol.comspam (Joe Sergio)

Date: 17 Apr 2004 00:51:40 GMT

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

Gee, let's see, why not take your dogs to a
training school or ask your local police how
they do it with their dogs?!

Ive already called the K9 officer in my town.
Left a message. He will get in touch with me.

And I don't know do you think maybe slapping
your dogs around so much and living with them,
I mean all that attention you are giving them might
just have something to do with why they like you
and your family more than the neighbors?

I don't slap them around so much. I'll pop em,
and all when they do something wrong, and
fuss at em.

But I have found something even better to
make them stop what they are doing.

A dustbuster. Just turn it on. Or show it to them.
They hate any type of vacum cleaner. It's worked
about keeping Jake out of the garbage.

I sat in the kitchen a whole day, and every
time he went to the garbage can and went
to stick his head in, I turned it on.

He stopped that.

Mainly I just pet them. They lay there by my
chair and I reach down and scratch them. They
get up in the chair with me. Tha'ts not easy
when they are that big. But they still think they
are puppies.

I do spoil them sometimes, but they
are my boys, and I love them.

Hey, but this is the SSBB clearinghouse and
you know the brain bucket is just outside and
we do expect you to leave your brain there
first before you post your problems here.
Afterall, we all know that SSBB has all the
answers you need for all your problems.
Don't bother picking up your phone and
calling around 'cause you got the good
ole SSBB to help solve your problems.

You dumbass, I did call around and ask some
advice from other folks as well first. I posted it
here because Miss Shirley trains dogs, and
there are a few folks here who know more about
it than I do.

Why do you try to turn every post you reply to
into a noncon humiliation scene with you topping?

Could it be that this is the only action your getting?

LOL

Time to fetch your brain. Come on boy
you can do it. There you go.

I'd ask you to fetch yours, but I don't think you can
see something that small without a microscope.
--
Joe
Suck a lifesaver today, put a fireman in your mouth.

--------------

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong <***@forest.pcpartner.net>

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

He does pretty well in his "walking gear" -
- which is what the prong and leash are.
When I put the prong collar and leash on, he
still shows other aggression behaviors to new
men in the house but does not lunge (because
he doesn't tighten his leash on the prong.)
I think he does pretty well with the leash behaviors
(given he's got a run-of-the-mill owner-type).

What other sorts of behaviours does he show?

He is mostly fine when we are off the property.
He still must stay leashed, but the only people
he shows aggression to are fly fisherman
(something about the gear freaks him out) and
other dogs.
Other people he basically ignores. My biggest
issue are other dog owners whose dogs are off
leash and want to come up and say hello.
My beast will play well with a dog who submits,
but will fight with one who doesn't.

I have a solution for that one.

When some clueless idjit allows their dog to
come up to mine, I call over sweetly "don't
worry, the vet doesn't think he's infectious anymore."

A carryover from my years showing horses when idjits leading a horse down
the aisle of a barn would let their
horse poke it's head into my horse's stall.

I'd grab a bottle of Ring-Ex (ringworm medication)
and start spritzing ostentatiously. And mention that
my vet thought we had the infestation cleared up.

I never mentioned that the bottle was
full of plain water. <G>

If I'm not in a nice mood, I just scare the bejeebers out
of the oncoming dog to send it away. When they say "but
he's friendly" I say "well, I'm not." My dogs never have
to defend themselves on leash. I think they sort of enjoy
seeing me chase other dogs away, there's a certain smugness in the way they
lean against me while looking
at the other dog.

Bottom line though... this dog is killing my sex life
because I can't introduce men into the house and
I've been in the mood for men the past several months.
I don't know what the hell I'm doing, so I've called a
local trainer and she's going to teach me how to more
effectively deal with the beast before I figure it's time
to enter a monastary :-)
This dog is so docile with me... the contrast in
behaviors is amazing.

Nooooo, not the monastary! Your scene reports are
incredibly good and would be a loss to pervkind.

Shirley

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong <***@forest.pcpartner.net>

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 02:38:40 -0500

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

Katharine H. writes: "This is my new tactic -
- my 3 yr old rottie/lab mix has become *extremely*
aggressive when new people, in particular men,
come onto his territory. All people who are coming
to my home for the first time are warned to expect
aggression. They are then given the option of
dealing with the dog or not.
If the new guests are not "dog people" I
will make the choice for them and the dog
will stay in the backyard while I have people
over.
If they do want to make friends with the dog,
then the dog goes on a leash and prong collar
when they enter the house.
When I let them in, he is snarling, lunging, etc.
As soon as the treats come out it's a whole new
ballgame. The pup sits and wags his tail and is
ready to make friends.
It generally takes time for him to warm up to new men."

Katherine, I have nothing against the use of prong collars
and recommend them when I feel it is appropriate. Just like
any tool, there are situations when a prong collar is the
best tool for a job and there situations where a prong
collar is the worst tool for a job.

Prong collars do tend to magnify a dog's aggressive tendencies.

If the dog is at all inclined to bite unreasonably,
the prong collar will often send it right over the edge.

<snip BD/SM and proceed directly to MURDER>

Re: homer bit me :(

i'm really disappointed in myself, because
i wigged out on him for it,

I'm not sure you should be. Maybe it's because
I'm used to dogs that'll keep pushing barriers just
to find the limits (if any), but the bottom line is that
Homer did something completely unacceptable
(for whatever good and justified reason) and
discovered that, yes, there is an upper boundary
beyond which his new human gets a bit testy.
That's a good thing for a dog of any age to learn.

i put him in his crate until i calmed down enough
to not do anything else stupid.

Well, see, you learned something valuable.
Homer learned something valuable.
It's all good. Neither of you will need
to repeat this particular lesson.
I hope so, anyway.

of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
i don't remember what the last update i posted
on homer was and i'm too tired and flat-out drained
to go back and look.
he saw the vet yesterday and wigged out and
tried to hurt him. i spent half an hour on the
phone with a behaviorist who was recommended
both by my trainer and whom we recommend at work.
she felt his prognosis was pretty grim and that
he's dangerous. most of what she does is work
with aggressive dogs. the only thing he has on
his side in this is that he's on the small side.
everything else about his biting is
seriously bad news.
i worked a half day today and spent the rest
of it spoiling him, snuggling him, feeding him
cookies and mcdonalds french fries.
everytime he moves his head quickly i jump,
in case he's planning on biting me.
tomorrow morning i'll hold him close and
whisper in his ear how much i love him
and how sorry i am that his life was what
it was, and send him on to a better place.
and then i'll cry some more.
i feel like i've been crying for two solid days.
--
And now, each night I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number. (Amiri Baraka)
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in the headers

You meant so well. I'm so sorry

-------------

Newsgroups: alt.pets.dogs.pitbull
From: elegy <***@DOGPOOPshattering.org>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:09:44 -0400

Subject: Re: A question about pit bulls.

Note: The author of this message requested
that it not be archived. This message will
be removed from Groups in 20 hours

unknown history has less to do with the
possibility of fighting than genetics.

you can take the pit bull out of the pit but
you can't take the pit out of the pit bull.

personally i am not willing to risk my dogs'
lives by leaving two fighting breed dogs alone
together no matter how well they get along when
i'm there.
--
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in headers

Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:36:24 -0400
Subject: Re: A question about pit bulls.

Note: The author of this message requested
that it not be archived. This message will
be removed from Groups in 6 hours

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:49:57 -0400, elegy
<***@DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote:

any *good* vet will take the dog at face value
and not muzzle or notmuzzle based on breed alone.

most pit bulls are actually fantastic at the vet
because they're such a people-loving and stoic
breed. i actually haven't yet had a bad experience
with a pit bull working in a veterinary environment,
even ones that were bad torn up from fights.

i know there are nasty pit bulls out there, and
fear-biters as well, but thankfully they're they
minority.

Newsgroups: alt.pets.dogs.pitbull
From: "Russ" <***@abc.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:01:09

Subject: Re: A question about pit bulls.

L Alpert,

It's unknown how a just graduated from highschool 17
year old male will act in the Summer holidays at the
local hang out, when confronted by the bully that
bullied and tormented him throughout the last 5 years
of highschool.

He may fall in line or he may react. Your dog is just
maturing, he may decide to be lower in the pack for
his entire life. Especially if you support the alpha.

BUT, if the pit decides in his own mind that it is
enough and decides to challenge for the top spot.

Your lifestyle will most likely change. All we are
trying to tell you is, be ready, be prepared, and
take precautions.

I don't know if you have seen a pitbull in its
virgin fight, but I can tell you they don't need
to taught to win against 99% of the other breeds
like rotties, gsd's, labs, etc. they will kick
ass and you will be mopping up.

Cleaning wounds and sticking your fingers into 1
nch deep gashes and punctures is not fun. And this
happened when I was there to break it up.

Imagine if you are not there to intervene. I am so
glad my dogs don't hate each other. Otherwise I would
have have a serious dilemma:) "X's fingers and thanks God"

===================

BWEEEAAAHAHAHHAHHAHHAAAA!!!

The Pit Bull Problem,
Breed Specific Legislation
And
The Pit Bull Fancier / RESCUER

HOWEDY People,

Thanks to katie aka elegy (***@shatteing.org),
a devHOWET Pit Bull RESCUER who's love and life revolves arHOWEND RESCUING
defenseless, misunderstood Pit Bull Dogs, we have "The Pit Bull
Problem":

HOWEDY elegy you miserable lying dog abusing
punk thug coward active acute long term incurable
MENTAL CASE,

I'm a new (and somewhat reluctant) owner of a pit bull.
I'm not sure this is the right place to ask, but I'm
giving it a shot.

Seems Kat AIN'T been PAYIN ATTENTION here on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Forums,
eh elegy?

You think you can HOODWINK her into HURTIN
her dog like HOWE you do your dogs, elegy, you
SHELTER / RESCUE dog lover?

Can pit bulls play with other dogs off leash?

A DOG IS A DOG, AIN'T THAT SO, elegy.

Can they ever be off leash

Just like ANY other BREED.

if not in a fenced area?

ONLY IF you know HOWE to install the come
command as a CONDITIONAL REFLEX as
taught in your own FREE COPY of The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.

i have two pits.

INDEEDY. And you jerk and choke them on your pronged
spiked pinch choke collar and SHOCK them to CONTRAIN
them in your yard and if they DON'T LIKE THAT you
take them to the SHELTER to be MURDERED for bein
AGGRESSIVE.

one is nutsy around all other dogs

ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR.

ALL FEAR IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

except his "sister",

MOST of HOWER DOG LOVERS can't keep their
own OPPOSITE SEX dogs withHOWET fighting.

but luce can play nicely with certain other dogs.

You mean when he AIN'T AFRAID.

she's got a good standard poodle friend and a
good goldendoodle friend, and she's played with
a couple of other male dogs, always in a very
controlled environment

You mean when you're standin right there ready
to THREATEN and HURT him if he acts AFRAID.

and with careful and appropriate introductions.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHHAHHAHAAA!!!

i would never ever ever take her to a dogpark though.

That's curiHOWES ain't it, elegy.

ever.

On accHOWENT of your dogs are FEAR AGGRESSIVE
JUST LIKE the rest of these mentally ill lyin
dog abusing punk thug cowards for the same reason.

she also can't be off-leash in an unfenced area

On accHOWENT of she'll RUN HOWET ON YOU
on accHOWENT of YOU CHOKE and SHOCK your
dogs, isn't THAT correct, elegy you miserable lying
dog abusing punk thug coward.

because her recall is lousy

DESPITE your SHOCK COLLAR,
just like jeff dege's dog, elegy?

in the face of anything she wants to chase.

INDEED? BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!

mushroom's recall is somewhat better

You mean he WON'T COME unless
you can HURT him ENOUGH.

but i still wouldn't take my chances.

On accHOWENT of you're a DOG ABUSING SIMPLETON.

With all the media hype about pits,

That MEDIA HYPE COMES FROM the Pit Bull Fanciers
like elegy. Isn't that correct, elegy. Remember last week
when you sent in that link with all the EXXXCELLENT
advice? They SELL SHOCK COLLARS.

They advised to break a dog of chasing his tail to allow him
to DO IT for a minute AND THEN IGNORE IT despite that
TAIL CHASING is an ANXXXIHOWESNESS BEHAVIOR
which can become COMPULSIVE / OBSESSIVE.

and the different rescue websites

The RESPONSIBLE ETHICKAL RESCUE
DOG LOVERS like elegy...

I've visited, it sounds like you never want them
to become overstimulated. If true, how do you keep
a hyper dog from becoming over stimulated?

HYPERACTIVE DOGS ARE MADE HYPERACTIVE BY DOG ABUSERS LOCKING THEM IN BOXES
and CHOKING and SHOCKING THEM.

i don't think you have to worry about them getting
overstimulated so much as you have to worry about
them being dog aggressive,

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAAAA!!!

which is absolutely normal for the breed.

THAT'S INSANE, elegy. THAT'S HOWE COME Pit
Bull dogs GOT a BAD REPUTATION you dog abusing
MENTAL CASE.

some pit bulls are more dog aggro than others,

A DOG IS A DOG, elegy. You HURT INTIMIDATE
and MURDER dogs that SCARE YOU, elegy.

some have very specific dislikes (luce hates female dogs

Luce is FEAR AGGRESSIVE of same sex dogs,
unlike your male dog who's FEAR AGGRESSIVE
of ALL dogs, isn't that correct, elegy.

of similar body type and will try to eat them
but small female dogs and giant female dogs
seem to be ok).

THAT'S INSANE.

some are just quick to take offense in play.

No, they're AFRAID on accHOWENT
of YOU ABUSE THEM.

luce is a very high energy dog.

You mean she's HYPERACTIVE.

i take her to run in a fenced yard daily.

Or she'll GO INSANE JUST LIKE THE REST
of HOWER DOG LOVER'S FEAR AGGRESSIVE HYPERACTIVE DOGS:

"Max will go BONKERS if exercise deprived,"
marshall dermer.

she and mushroom, my male, play a lot of tug and
a lot of chase. when it was just her and me, we
played a lot of tug and did a lot of training.

Your "TRAINING" is HOWE COME she's
HYPERACTIVE and FEAR AGGRESSIVE.

brain work seems to tire her out a
lot faster than purely physical play.

Naaah? Do tell?

(mushroom's pretty low energy. just walking
and general play tires him out plenty.)

Oh. You mean he's hpothyroid, a STRESS INDUCED
AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

--
read banned books.
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in headers

Here's elegy aka katie doin her beast to IDENTIFY
the Pit Bull Problem and SAVE the Pit Bull from

you don't have to be a big-time pit bull
activist to be aware of the pit bull problem.

A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.

all you have to do is tune into the nightly news. it's
there all the time. such and such pit bull attacked this
child, this old person's little fluffy dog, the neighbor,
etc etc etc. some of it isn't true-sometimes it's not pit
bulls. and there are plenty of other dog attacks
happening, but they aren't as fashionable right now,
so they're less likely to be reported (or their reported
with "pit bull" in the headline despite the actual breed
of dog).

ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.

You GET The Critter You TRAINED

there is a pit bull problem.

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING

there is an extreme overpopulation problem in
the us right now. extreme. over a million pit bulls
are euthanized every single year in shelters in
this country. some shelters euthanize every single
pit bull who crosses the threshold into their buildings.

"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.

What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George

these dogs don't even get the opportunity for a new life.

Many dog lovers believe DEATH is superior to bein locked
in a box in a "shelter" till the day the dog dies of a
natural death as G-D intended <{); ~ ) >

Many animal activists believe dogs who cannot ENJOY normal natural lives
cohabitating with humans and other animals in harmony would be better off
gently and humanely EUTHANIZED.

and yet, people are pumping out more and more
and more dogs for a quick buck, because they're
too lazy to spay and neuter,

Many dog lovers and animal rights activists believe
that dogs SHOULD be surgically sexually mutilated
for their own protection DESPITE that surgical sexual mutilation CAUSES
AGGRESSION.

because breeding pit bulls is somehow fashionable.

Of curse, the only people who'd see dog aggressive
dogs as FASIONABLE would be Pit Bull Fanciers,
DOG FIGTHERS and active acute chronic long term incurable mental cases who
see themselves as Pit
Bull ACTIVISTS <{); ~ ) >

there are very very few breeders who do it right.

ETHICKAL breeders and Pit Bull Fanciers always
BLAME "poorly bred / unethical backard / puppy
mill / pet shop " breed stock for the PROBLEMS
of their favorite breed <{); ~ ) >

they are out there, but chances are, they don't have
a litter on the ground, and in this "have-it-now"
society, people will go where there is supply,
consequences and ethics be damned.

Well then, it would seem it behooves the ETHICKAL breeders to fulfill the
DEMAND for and SUPPLY
ETHICKALLY BRED dog aggressive high strung
demanding overbearing PET and SHOW DOGS to
obviate the UNETHICAL backyard / puppy mill sold
in pet shop breed stock, like Petey from "HOWER
GANG" t.v. series.

a responsible breeder is breeding maybe a litter
a year right now. certainly no more than two.

OtherWIZE they'd be PUPPYMILLERS.

and they are breeding dogs with both conformation
(show ring) titles and working titles. these are working
dogs, after all.

Of curse, the ONLY "WORK" a Pit Bull dog is suited
for are pullin sledges in competition and DOG FIGHTING.

they were not developed as companion dogs,

That's SHEER IDIOCY as evidenced
by Petey on HOWER GANG.

though they make wonderful companions.

That's a oxymoron, AIN'T IT.

these dogs were bred to work.

CITES PLEASE, katie?

they love to work.

WHAAAT "WORK"???

responsible breeders are health testing the dogs

For GENETIC DIS-EASES caused by IN BREEDING.

that they're breeding.

INDEEDY!

this means they OFA hips, shoulders,

The "hip" problems are CAUSED by nutritional deficiencies.

cardiac, thyroid, and CERF

The cardiac / thyroid problems and eye problems
are CAUSED by POOR NUTRITION and STRESS.

poorly bred blue pit bulls are prone to skin
conditions like demodex (a type of mange
which is a result of a poor immune system)
and allergies.

CASE CLOSED, eh People???

many of these problems have a genetic component

The Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard has DISCREDITED the Canine Genome
Project base
on the DISCREDITATION of the EXXXPERTS
workin on it, dra. karen overall and her "patients"
professora melanie chang and her fear aggressive
hyperactive BC Solo, who, after FIVE YEARS of
"TREATMENT" and psychotropic anti psychotic medications has made NO
improvement:

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * ***@lppi.ucsf.edu
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

From: Rocky (***@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the
leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

and while it wouldn't be possble to completely eliminate
health problems through health testing, it is possible to
lessen the chance of them.

That's ABSURD.

responsible breeders get to know potential buyers.

Ahhh, THAT'S the SECRET to ETHICKAL BREEDIN,
AIN'T IT, dog lovers.

they grill them.

Perhaps they should "catch and release" them?

they care about where their dogs are going, and
they keep track of them through their entire lives.

OtherWIZE they'd be COMPETING with
their own BREED STOCK.

they microchip pups before they leave.

Microchippin dogs to PREVENT ESCAPE??? That's ABSURD. But it HAS been
implicated in CAUSING CANCERS.

they have tight and required spay/neuter contracts.

Surgical sexual mutilation is unnecessary unethical
veterinary malpractice which ONLY benefits the
ETHICKAL VETERINARY MALPRACTICIONER
and ETHICKAL BREEDER <{):~ ( >

they are willing to take their pups back at any time,

As they frequently must do.

no matter what.

And then they MURDER them as bein
UNFIT for WORKIN with people.

they accept that they created them and
are responsible for them.

AND THEY MURDER THEIR OWN DEFECTIVE DOGS.

responsible breeders do NOT contribute
to the number of dogs in the shelter.

Perhaps they DO by not meeting the market
needs for large numbers of ETHICKALLY
BRED Pit Bull dogs <{); ~ ) >

Here's a ETHICKAL Grey HOWEND rescuer:

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <***@ncweb.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <***@ncweb.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

--------------------------

did i mention how few of these responsible
breeders there are?

INDEEDY.

an irresponsible breeder lets these dogs go to anyone

Like folks who'd allHOWE their ETHICKALLY
BRED dogs to go to dog parks and jeopardize
the safety of J.Q. Pubic <{); ~ ) >

and after the money has changed hands,
they are done with the pups. these are the
dogs that grow up to have unstable
temperaments, or to be absolutely unsuitable
for the family that bought them, to be too much
work, to cost too much, to have health problems
that the owners weren't bargaining for.

That's ABSURD.

these are the dogs who get dumped in
shelters every single day. these are the
dogs running the streets, chained in the
backyard, unsound in temperament.

No. These are the dogs who've been driven INSANE
by jerking choking shocking crating and surgical
sexual mutilation, poor diet and veterinary malpractice.

but what can we do? i feel so helpless in the face of
such rampant backyard breeding. i feel so helpless to
do anything but talk myself blue about the problem and
hope the word spreads.

We're workin on it, elegy...

Coming Soon! Blogathon 2005 will be taking
place on August 6, beginning at 9 AM Eastern
time. My charity this year is Pit Bull Rescue Central.

SHAAAZZZAAAMMM!!!

To sponsor me: my "campaign" information is listed here.
In order to sponsor me, though, you have to register an
account with the blogathon site. This doesn't mean you
have to blog, stay up crazy hours, or anything like that.
They just need your information in their system. From
there you will be able to enter your pledge amount. It's
supposed to be fixed so that it'll take you right back to
my info, but if it doesn't, you'll unfortunately have to
search through the campaigns. Mine is listed under the

. name katie and the website shattering [dot] org. Thanks

to everyone for your >support!
08/06/2005: "11: the pit bull problem (part 2)"
overbreeding is part one of the pit bull problem. it's
a very significant part, mind you, but i don't think the
most signficant part.

Agreed. The MOST SIGNIFICANT part is the
Pit Bull Fancier who jerks chokes shocks crates
ribes intimidates and surgically sexually mutilates
their dogs whom they CANNOT CONFINE
despite their six foot privacy fence with shock
barrier <{): ~ ( >

irresponsible and uneducated ownership of
these dogs is the most significant part of the
pit bull problem.

INDEEDY: The Pit Bull Fancier.

people get these dogs because they're cool, because
they're "dangerous", because they're there.

AND BECAUSE THEY NEED SAVING <{); ~ ) >

they have no idea what they're getting into.
these are very high maintainance dogs.

katie means they're HYPERACTIVE:

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >

they're prone to dog aggression.

THAT'S INSANE. ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR
is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING as HOWER Pit Bull
Fanciers promote in their ETHICKAL BREEDING campaines.

they're athletic and rowdy. they will get out
of your yard. luce has gotten out of the yard
three times and she's never ever left unattended,
with six foot privacy fencing even.
she's been through the fence (nice of her to
find the loose boards) and under the fence.
i know she'll be over it one day.

Well then perhaps you should learn HOWE to
pupperly TRAIN your dogs, elegy aka katie???

they need a lot of training, and while they're
smart dogs and usually very trainable dogs,

It's your "TRAINING" that causes those pronlems.
Perhaps they're SMART ENOUGH to HOWEtwit
the cunning of the dedicated Pit Bull Fancier and
domestic puppy dog trainers:

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

I THINK YOU GET THE POINT.
DON'T YOU.

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-06 00:54:36 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY spot a.k.a. celeste, you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin top postin life-long
INCURABLE MALIGNANT MALICIHOWES MENTAL CASE,

"Spot" <***@somewhere.net> wrote in message news:IdUrl.1495$%***@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

KERCHING~!
KERCHING~!~!
KERCHING~!~!~!
KERCHING~!~!~!~!

THREE PATHETIC MISERABLE STINKIN
ROTTEN LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN MENTAL
CASES in a RHOWE and a BONUS:

JACKASSPOT~!

Vibrating collar?

To be honest,

THAT'D be a 1st~!

this is one terrific old dog who's worked hard
and is having physical problems at the end of her life, so I let her get
away with all kinds of crap (and intend to continue doing so).

That so?

I have a good friend inherited a GSD from her boyfriend (who tragically
committed suicide a
few years ago).

SHAAAZZZAAAMMM~?

He is a Schutzhund 3 dog who was very badly treated by his first owner
(not the
boyfriend), then the boyfriend, who didn't abuse him but also was one of
those "he's a working dog" types.

Oh, you mean LIKE THIS, robin?:

From: Robin Nuttall <***@mchsi.com>

"Those who slavishly devote themselves to one
type of training and who condemn others are the
poorer for it.

I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.

Some of these things I use frenquently. Some
very infrequently. I tend to focus my training in
the quadrants of positive reinforcement and
negative punishment, and am far more likely
to eliminate undesired behavior through ignoring
it than any other way.

I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.

If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.

But be willing to listen as well as talk.

And please stop top posting.

---------------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

From: "Robin Nuttall" <***@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer

There are pullers, then there are PULLERS.

Viva is one of the former, and has learned to
walk very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced
that Cala is genetically incapable of walking on
a loose leash.

She's almost 18 months old now, and we have
been working on the issue since I first put a leash
on her.

She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is as
reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can.

I can do sneak aways until I am dizzy, we
just get yo-yo effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS
way now!).

I can clicker her for loose leashes until
my thumb falls off--and she still pulls.

A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.

I have a feeling this is something that she will
only develop with age, and will come regardless
of any training I do or don't do.

And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to
walk on a loose leash, but not this one...

Robin Nuttal.

--------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

From: Robin Nuttall (***@ddgraphix.com)
Subject: Re: Wobblers Syndrome
Date: 2001-01-08

I have a 9 year old female Doberman with this condition. Currently she is
still mobile, but needs
help with stairs. Surgery is not a option because of its expense, long
term personal care and the surgery cannot fully correct the problem.
I am looking for acupuncture treatments,
chiropractic care etc. by Vets in Pennsylvania or Maryland. Please send me
useful contact
info or ideas that are known to be beneficial.
I am not looking for a 100% cure, but I would like to provide a improved
and better quality
of life for this great dog.

Welcome to my world! As the owner of not one,
but two dogs severely affected with Wobblers (
CVI, Cervical Vertebral Instability), I can relate.

I too chose not to do surgery. It's a very tough
surgery, with a long recovery time, and it is not
a cure. It merely fuses the affected spinal vertebrae.

It does sometimes help, but there's a danger of
later recurrence and something called domino
effect. And of course it IS terribly expensive.

If you are interested in alternative medicine, go to
the Alternative Veterinary Medicine website at
http://www.altvetmed.com. There you will find a
wealth of information, including links to a site
listing all board certified veterinary acupuncturists
in the country.

It's very important to go to a DVM who is board certified!

Don't go to a human acupuncturist. And also avoid
chiropractic care, it's often too much for dogs who
already have unstable spines.

I use a combination of acupuncture and rimadyl. It
works well for me, and Dreamer is 4 years out from
diagnosis! Best of luck.
--
Robin Nuttall

=========

His job was to work schutzhund, period.

INDEED? That's curiHOWES, on accHOWENTA
SHITzhund is a GAME; seriHOWES professional
dog trainers think of SHITzhund as a JOKE; it's
IRRELEVANT to REAL WORKIN DOG TRAINERS.

He stayed in a run and was never, ever allowed so much as a dog bed.

You mean IT lived JUST LIKE a WORKIN DOG,
like all them PROFESSIONAL SLED dogs malinda
*DREAMS* abHOWET runnin in the IDIOTarod?

Alf is quite possibly the sweetest dog I've ever
met. He expects nothing and he's always happy.

Yeah, that's kinda a OXYMORON, AIN'T IT, robin??

He's 13 now. He's loose in the house, and is delighted to have his very
own dog bed in every single room. He does therapy work, he
adores kids. My friend considers it her job to
make sure Alf never does anything Alf doesn't want to do.

INDEED? You mean, NO JERKIN CHOKIN
an SHOCKIN IT, robin? HOWE does your
FRIEND cope with it all??

She can't take away his early life but she can make sure he enjoys every
minute he has left.

Oh, INDEEDY~!:

robin NUTCASE, Golden Girl Goddess of
BACKYARD PUPPY MILLIN and AGILITY
COMPETITION scrawled on the crapHOWES

Aside from the fact that it's a ludicrous (and libelous) statement that I
beat my dogs,

Right. Jerkin chokin an shockin an sprayin
aversives in your dog's eyes AIN'T BEATIN
them, IS IT <{}: ~ ) >

HOWEver, beatin childrein IS apupriate:

From: "Jen" <***@bigpond.net.au> -
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:41:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Let's Start afresh

"Robin Nuttall" <***@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:txeVe.324546$***@attbi_s72...

Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
negative" while continuously slamming people for
"cruel" methods that she can't even define. She
wants "all positive," but she can't define that
either beyond "not cruel."

As for no physical punishment for kids--hey, an
appropriate whack on the butt for a 2 year old
can be extremely effective and no, it doesn't
meant that the human administering it will
suddenly turn into a child abusing thug that
will beat the child to death.

=============

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

It's wonderful that he has an owner now who spoils him..........:)

But of curse~!

Things are like that with Buddy.

Oh, INDEED??

He was clearly abused before we got him

Naaaaah?

and major trust issues.

But your SHOCK collar and CHOKIN HARNESS
an LOCKIN IT IN A BOX and IGNORING ITS CRIES
FIXED all that, DIDN'T IT, celeste, you PATHETIC
MISERABLE STINKIN ROTTEN LYIN ANIMAL

Now that I know he trust me completely
he gets to do about anything he wants.

That so?:

Wed, Feb 9 2005
Subject: Re: House breaking the boyfriend,
there's going to be a fight!

HOWEDY spot,

Your idiotic questions and vindictiveness towards
your boy toy doesn't even deserve dignifyin it with
a answer.

Your DEAD DOG Barny DIED from STRESS
INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE on
accHOWENT of YOU ABUSED HIM ALL HIS
LIFE as DEMONSTRATED in your own posted
case history:

From: "Spot" <***@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004

Subject: Re: Help from any vet or anyone
who's been through this.

Philip,

I don't have a problem with giving him Deramaxx.

He's been on it for two years the only reason
we took him off it was due to the cancer.

NOTHING is going to cure the cancer this is
the 3rd round the mast cell cancer he has had
and this is completely inoperable and I will not
put him through chemo or radiation.

I am more interested in his quality of life for
the remainder of his life. He has for years
taken glucosamine & condroiten supplements
with the approval of his orthpedic vet.

Barney has had ACL surgery on both is knees
and has extensive arthritis no supplement will
ever give him total complete pain relief and I
sure am not willing to use something for a month
waiting for it to work.

---------------------------

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

YOUR DOG'S DEAD on accHOWENT of you abused him.

Tell it to ed w of PETLOSS.CON or "lighteningstrike",
dog abusin coward lying mental cases they are... you'll
be in EXXXCELLENT company.

Your dog had two acl surgeries on
accHOWET of YOU ABUSED HIM:

"I've been through this with Barney he has
had both his repaired and it was well worth
the expense.

Yes he has arthritis but it's not near as bad
as it would have been if I hadn't had it done
right away.

Celeste

----------------------------

HERE'S HOWE COME:

Date: 23 Jan 2005 08:21:07 -0800
Subject: Re: How Do I Handle Her?

HOWEDY spot,

From: "Spot" <***@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005
Subject: Re: How Do I Handle Her?

I have always used a no-pull halter

That's a choking harness, spot. Dogs DON'T LIKE
GETTIN CHOKED no matter HOWE you call it, spot.

and it works like a charm.

It HURTS and INTIMDIATES your dog and teaches
IT to FEAR you HURTING HIM someMOORE, spot.

You can find them at Walmart sometimes and most any pet store will carry
them.

Yeah. But you won't find ANY intelligent kindly
dog owners using them, spot. ONLY DOG ABUSERS
HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER innocent critters
and try to get HOWET callin THAT, trainin.

It's a collar the 2 D rings at the bottom and a Yshaped piece at the top.
There are 2 other padded strips of cording where you slide one under each
leg from the top Y connector and attach to the individual D rings below.
The top piece of these slide through the Y at the top and leash attaches
to the top.
Basically when the dog pulls it tightens
and puts pressuer under the legs.

And they LIKE THAT, do they, spot?

The dogs don't like the pressure

Ohhh. HOWE COME?

and it throws them off balance as they pull harder.

And that's to teach the dog to naturally want to be
with you every place you go, is that correct, spot?

They soon learn not to pull.

That so, spot?

Your dog AIN'T PULLIN on accHOWENT of
you're HURTING HIM. Take off your choking
harness and your dog will pull. Take off your
leash and your dog will RUN HOWET ON YOU
on accHOWENT of you're a dog abusing punk
thug coward mental case.

REMEMBER, spotty?

I had tried everything out there to walk Barney

You mean you TRIED EVERY THING
TO HURT YOUR DOG, spot.

and nothing else would ever work.

Oh. THAT'S on accHOWENT of there AIN'T NO
APUPRIATE WAY TO HURT and INTIMIDATE
your dog, spot. THAT'S HOWE COME DOGS
GO NUTS and GET DEAD, spot.

He would constantly pull me

On accHOWENT of you was CONSTANTLY
TRYING TO CHOKE HIM, spot.

once I found these halters the whole
walking experience was a joy.

That so?:

"The dogs don't like the pressure and it throws
them off balance as they pull harder."

Celeste

And THAT'S HOWE COME you CRIPPLED
and CANNOT TRAIN your own dog.

And THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy
Wizard SEZ "when you post here abHOWETS
The Amazing Puppy Wizard will QUOTE YOU
and leave you F'd OFF for the last of your dignity
and self respect IF you EVER THOUGHT you
EVER had any to begin with."

The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{}'; ~ ) >

One of the things that really make him happy is getting to shred paper.
So about once a week I let something down for him to have fun with.

Naaaah?

He doesn't play with toys much but he loves his paper.

You mean he DESTROYS paper items as an anXXXIHOWESNESS RELIEF MECHANISM <{}:
~ ( >

Celeste
--
Get 600 FREE 4X6 prints and 600 FREE 5x7 prints
sign up for Artscow
http://www.artscow.com/?Ref=541736
Save 25% or more on your eBay® auctions
Snipe eBay Auctions with Bidnip
http://www.bidnip.com/a.php?id=39019

Seems *you* ain't NUTHIN but a SPAMMER
and lyin dog abusin MENTAL CASE <{}: ~ ( >

If you find they don't get along

Like your dogs, spot?

is large enough to split the yard up with some fencing or even purchase
an outside
kennel. That way you can keep them seperated outside when necessary and
when indoors keep them in seperate rooms.

You mean INSTEAD of just TRAININ them to
TRUST each other, LIKE HOWE YOU TRAINED
your own dog Barney to TRUST you, despite
you ABUSIN HIM, spot?

We had to keep the dogs seperated when we evaculated 2 years ago.

You mean on accHOWENT of YOU
GOT THE SAME PROBLEM, spot?

We moved the ducks out of the kennel to
the chicken coop and Barney spent the day in an outside kennel at my
sisters. Then that evening we brought him inside and he
slept in the basement.
Now Brandy was a marshmallow she went
right in the house and made herself at home on the recliner and never even
blinked at my
sisters dogs.

Well, that *is* AMAZING!

Celeste

HOWEDY spot

You answered your own question.

That so?:

"Does anyone have any ideas other than to
just never have her around other dogs?"

Keep her away from other dogs,

That AIN'T the ANSWER, spot.

she gives no warning signs and is "unpredictable"

The dog IS predictable.

She FIGHTS when she's AFRAID.

better safe than sorry.

That so, spot?

I had a lab/husky/cocker mix who had an "Attitude" that I can take
anything regardless
of size.

You mean he was VERY AFRAID.

He got along with only one other dog in his life time

Well then spot, perhaps you shouldn't be givin
ADVICE abHOWET HOWE to pupperly handle
and train a dog, spot?

and even that took 6 months to accomplish.

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAAA!!!

I came to the realization early on that he was
always going to be "Mr Antisocial" and always
going to go for a fight.

On accHOWENT of you don't know HOWE to
train a dog nodoGgamenedMOORE than the
other lying dog abusing punk thug cowards
and active acute long term incurable MENTAL
CASES who choke shock crate bribe and
intimidate their own dogs like HOWE you do, spot.

As much as I hated it to do it

You just couldn't heelp yourself, eh spot?

often he had to stay at home because I knew taking him out in public would
be a bad idea when I knew other dogs would be there.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!

Celeste

CuriHOWES AIN'T IT, that EVERY WON of
your dog lover pals GOT THE SAME SAME
SAME SAME PROBLEM for the SAME SAME
SAME SAME REASON, spot.

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

chardonnay9

2009-03-07 14:57:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
That so? You MURDERED your DEAD DOG
Harve after IT went into INTRACTIBLE PSYCHO-
NEUROTIC SEIZURES from you ABUSIN IT by
lockin IT in a box and IGNORING ITS CRIES
and puttin DIAPERS ON IT to PREVENT IT
from PISSIN ALL OVER YOUR HOWES <{}: ~ ( >

the young dogs have to wait in their crates
for their food (self control, we work on it!)

THAT'S INSANE, elegy; WHAT'S to "work on"?
You lock your dogs in a box and offer and
withold BRIBES which MAKES THEM
INSANE an then *you* MURDER them <{}: ~ ( >

Yeah, it would make them nuts. Head games only end up with dogs who are
not sane. My dogs get to eat soon as it's put down, or later if they
don't want it right away, but that seldom happens.

Never, ever play games with food.

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
elegy T-O-R-T-U-R-E-D, I-N-T-I-M-I-D-A-T-E-D, an
M-U-R-D-E-R-E-D her last FOUR *(4) CONSECUTIVE
DEAD "RESCUE" dogs in the most DIABOLICAL ways
known only to devHOWET koehler "trainers" <{}: ~ ( >
http://youtu.be/DzBtxevvcFs

Can't see the video. It says it's private. Could you change it's status
please?

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-07 20:46:48 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY Chardonnay9,

Post by chardonnay9

the young dogs have to wait in their crates
for their food (self control, we work on it!)

THAT'S INSANE, elegy; WHAT'S to "work on"?
You lock your dogs in a box and offer and
withold BRIBES which MAKES THEM
INSANE an then *you* MURDER them <{}: ~ ( >

Yeah, it would make them nuts.

Yeah; here's HOWE COME:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of
"negative reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY
EVERY LEARNING THEORY model involves
the USE OF PUNISHMENT.

Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."

SEE?

THAT'S HOWE COME elegy MURDERED her
DEAD "RESCUE" dog Harve when IT TURNED
ON HER for offerin an withHOWELDING bribes
an FORCIN IT into a box to AVOID TRAININ IT;
NO SURPRISE IT WENT INSANE <{}: ~ ( >

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"All Animals Learn Beast Through Play," Lorenz.

A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!

-------------

The Embry Study:

"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.

Thus, suggestions to parents that they
talk to or reason with their children about
dashing into the street will likely to have
the opposite impact.

Reprimands do not punish
unsafe behavior; they reward it."

Source:

"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."

--------------

"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV:

"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:

The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contemporary ethologists.

On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.

The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.

Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
<transitional//en">

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;20(3):230-5

-------------------

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).

Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental HANDLING
of the child (Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavoir and
learning immediately deteriorated.

Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic therapists.

Research in four areas :

1) direct evaluation of programmed systems for learning;
2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and
4) motivation, MOST SURELY DEMOLISH
the claims of operant programers."

----------------------

Post by chardonnay9
Head games only end up with
dogs who are not sane.

HOWER dog lovers believe in CON-TROLLING
all the "resources" - the so called N.I.L.I.F. technique.

It's ABSURD and INSANE for a "trainer" to believe
THEY CAN CON-TROLL EVERY "resource" in the
dog's environment - THEN YOU WONder HOWE
COME their dogs CONSISTENTLY EAT SHIT??

Even SHIT is a RESOURCE these MENTAL
CASES CANNOT CON-TROLL <{}: ~ ( >

Instead of TRAININ their dogs not to EAT SHIT
they JERK CHOKE SHOCK an put aversives in
SHIT an FEED IT to their dogs to "train" them.

OR, they go throughHOWET their neighborhood
and dog parks LOOKIN for ALL THE SHIT in
creation so they can PICK IT ALL UP to AVOID
their dog EATIN SHIT.

Post by chardonnay9
My dogs get to eat soon as it's put down,

Of curse. Waitin till the dog melts into a puddle
of drool is CRUEL and INSANE CON-TROLL
FREAK BEHAVIOR <{}: ~ ( >

Post by chardonnay9
or later if they don't want it right away,

As it should be <{}: ~ ) >

Post by chardonnay9
but that seldom happens.

Of curse <{}'; ~ ) >

Post by chardonnay9
Never, ever play games with food.

Of curse not; it makes dogs HYPERACTIVE
and NEUROTIC and HOWETA CON-TROLL:

Author and professional dog
trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.

Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al?:

Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >

From: canis55 <***@my-deja.com>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness

Dear Marilyn,

I just visited your updated site. The two Ness
pages are great. Freezing the video frames to
reveal the emotional impact a leash correction
has on a dog was a wonderful idea.

Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian
Kilcommon video.

The difference is we were focusing on the
emotional impact a leash correction has on
the trainer.

When you do this to a training video you can
clearly see the tremendous emotional charge
some of these trainers are getting from hurting
dogs.

It's a strange business, this dog training.

I wonder what motivates any of us to engage
in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of
people who claim to love what dogs represent
to them, and yet they don't become trainers.

I don't think this is because they love something
else more.

I think there is a difference between loving
what dogs represent to us and loving what
training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.

It's a complicated process and perhaps many
of us have lost sight of what we're doing.

I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on
dogs in an effort to create a desire to perform
tasks that I often see dogs performing of their
own accord.

I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability
without all the violence and pain.

Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder
why we think a dog should perform a task that
is so repugnant to its nature, that we must resort
to violence and coercion to compel them to participate.

Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs,
but when I read this stuff it sounds like slavery
and involuntary servitude to me.

I can't see much difference between what we're
doing to them (for their own good) and what my
country men did to the African peoples for nearly
half a century.

It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by
so much madness, but I have to go with my heart
on this one.

Most of what we demand from dogs--if not all
of it--will be offered willingly and enthusiastically
if we only learn how to request it in a manner
they can comprehend.

If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get
it to do or to not do something, then maybe the
dog isn't supposed to do what I think it should.

The whole thing's so complicated that I can't
really express it. I just know I don't like some
of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.

----------------

Post by chardonnay9

Can't see the video.

SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE??

Post by chardonnay9
It says it's private.

Yeah. "Seem" elegy read my posts an took her
INFORMATIVE video "Screaming Luce" off the
'net.

Post by chardonnay9
Could you change it's status please?

I'm workin on it. I had a copy on my computer
so I wasn't concerned that the MENTAL CASE
would take her video of JERKIN an CHOKIN
Luce goin INSANE on ITS PRONGED SPIKED
PINCH CHOKE COLLAR after a other dog -
- but THEN I crashed my 'puter just pryor to elegy discoverin I'd linked to
it.

You MIGHT wanna ask elegy HOWE COME would
these EXXXPERTS set their INFORMATIVE POSTS
to EXXXPIRE in six days like HOWE matty a.k.a.
Rocky, elegy, montana, diddler, professora melanie
chang, cindy title moore of k9web.com, marquis de
"READ KOEHLER FOR CONTENT" shaw and not
so happy, not so handsome, not so gentle jackass,
not even jack morrison, a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN a.k.a. tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retriever PUPPY MILL and SHOCK COLLAR
SALES??

Are they EMBARRASSED by their own words,
the PATHETIC MISERABLE STINKIN ROTTEN
LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN PUNK THUG COWARD
ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LIFE-LONG INCURABLE
MENTAL CASES FRAUDS an SCAM ARTISTS?

LIKE THIS:

tommy wrote:

From: ***@i1.net (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11

Subject: Re: Koehler's Usefulness-
-A Concluding Assessment

This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has
TOTALLY refused to engage me in debate,
preferring mudslinging, hyperbole, distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely
out of context, instead.

What lying hypocrites these hand-wringers are!

The most consistent argument among Koehler's
defenders is based on a questionable assumption
that such "drastic" measures are effective in
"extreme" cases where other methods fail.

------------------------

SEE?

matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:

"Rocky" <***@rocky-dog.com> wrote

For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

---------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

SEE?

P.S. Stay tuned for my EXXXPOSE in "The
Daily SNUGGLE <{}'; ~ ) >": "bob bailey,
'On Punishment': When I have really punished,
and that means REAL positive punishment, it
was always to save lives, property, or some
other such reason.

I would never think of using positive punishment
for anything like standard obedience training."

<SNIP IDIOCY>
<RESUME IDIOCY>

"This sometimes philosophical and broad
brush discussion of punishment is my
attempt to point out that there could be
political fallout from a society's decision
to totally ban punishment.

Further, I suggest that we follow our own
creed of "think positive," and spend less
time attacking those who believe that they
have the right and justification to punish."

We'll ENJOY a discussion of CRIMINALLY
INSANE DOG TRAININ as understood an
practiced by bob bailey <{}: ~ ) >

Till then... SNUGGLES <{}'; ~ ) >

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-07 21:36:22 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY paul e. schoen you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward
active acute chronic life-long incurable malignant
maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE,

[in response to elegy's remarks about Harvey nipping her when feeding him

It got her DEAD RESCUE DOG Homer DEAD on her:

Subject: i don't know what to do
From: elegy
Date: Monday, February 26, 2007

homer full-on attacked me tonight. multiple puncture
wounds on my hand, torn pants, dog that kept coming.

he meant it tonight. he meant to hurt
me, not just to say "i don't like this".

i was trying to teach him to down using a lure and
he totally and completely wasn't getting it at all, so
i was trying to physically show him what i wanted.

yeah. guess not.

i don't know what to do.

i have always said that i WILL NOT tolerate a dog who
bites, that i WILL NOT have a dog like that in my house.

it's easy to say when you're not faced with that, eh?
--
And now, each night I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number. (Amiri Baraka)
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in the header

---------------------

Homer 1994 - 03.01.2007"
brothers and sisters i bid you beware
of giving your heart to a dog to tear

i put homer to sleep yesterday.

it was quite possibly the hardest thing i've ever done.

monday night i was trying to teach him to down using a
food lure. he wasn't getting it, so i put a hand on him to
try to encourage him to down. he attacked me, biting me
twice on the hand, and then when i stood up and backed
away, he came after me more and bit me on the leg as well.

i was shocked and devestated and a hundred other things.

i ended up emailing my trainer (who has
turned out to be a very kind friend) and
she called me and i spent an hour on
the phone with her crying.

she doesn't deal with aggression cases,
but she listened to me and talked me down.

i hardly slept that night.

tuesday i took homer in to work with me and
had the vet feel his neck. i didn't think it was
a reaction due to pain but i had to check it out.

the vet put his hands on the sides of homer's
head and manipulated his head around. homer
didn't show any signs of pain or discomfort. he
went through the motions some more.

homer flipped out, with no warning, extremely
violently. it took him a long time (it felt like a
lifetime. it was probably around 3 minutes) to
calm down enough that the vet could take his
hands off of homer without anybody getting hurt.

i went home for lunch and called a behaviorist.

i spent a lot of the day reading the brenda aloff
aggression book and the karen overall behavior book.

that night the behaviorist called me and i told
her what had happened and she asked questions
and i answered them as best i could.

she gave him a pretty poor prognosis.

everything that she said made sense to me,
and nothing she said was earth-shattering or
even really anything that i didn't already know.

this morning i took him in and held him close
and cried into his fur and told him how much
i love him and let him go.

he was a dangerous dog. he bit unpredictably
and with no warning. he was a love, a snugglebug,
a sweet sweet dog as long as you didn't do anything
he didn't want done.

but if you tried to "make" him do something
he didn't want to do, all bets were off. his
reaction could be a snap or it could be an
over-the-top meltdown.

i couldn't live with a dog like that.

i *will not* live with a dog like that.

i've spent the last three days crying my eyes out.

i never imagined i could get that attached to a
dog who i had for all of 12 days and who bit me
several times during those12 days.

but i was. i loved him.

i loved him ferociously, but i had to let him go.

for his sake.

for my sake.

for the sake of luce and mushroom.

i feel horrible. heartbroken. guilty. angry.

and yet i don't regret him, not for one
moment, despite how things turned out.

Replies: 2 comments

i'm sorry, but human aggression is a deal-breaker, especially unpredictable,
unwarned human-aggression.

there is too much at stake and too much to lose.

Posted by e @ 03/26/2007 06:49 AM EST

You were just as unpredictable to Homer.
Shame on you for giving him only 12 days.

-----------------------

SEE, paulie, you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin
MENTAL CASE??

and having the young dogs wait in crates while food is being placed down
for them]

Lockin dogs in boxes MAKES THEM INSANE.

Post by chardonnay9
Yeah, it would make them nuts. Head games only end up with dogs who are
not sane. My dogs get to eat soon as it's put down, or later
if they don't want it right away, but that seldom happens.
Never, ever play games with food.

I think it is important to have a dog be polite
and wait until told it is OK to go to the food
bowl and eat.

Yeah? You likeWIZE think it's O.K. to JERK
CHOKE SHOCK an STAB innocent defenseless
dumb critters.

LIKE THIS, you pathetic coward:

From: "Paul E. Schoen" <***@smart.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:01:40 -0400

Subject: Re: i hate off-leash dogs.

I do miss the days of my childhood when
we thought nothing of walking our medium
sized, very sweet and friendly dog without
a leash, although sometimes we did when
we were near a busy road.

Yet I have a very vivid and terrible memory
of the time when my dog was viciously attacked
by a larger dog in the woods near our house.

The girl who owned the dog was beating it
with a stick, and I stabbed it in the neck.

Both dogs survived, but after that, I
always carried a stout stick with me
when walking our dog.

This was back in the 60s, when leash laws
were very lax or non-existent, and before
everybody was lawsuit crazy, and when
the few drug dealers and thugs in the few
bad areas of town were deathly afraid of
all big dogs.

Paul, Muttley and Lucky

---------------------

SEE??

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

This is not difficult with low value food such as kibble,

You mean, GARBAGE, paulie?:

http://www.iamscruelty.com/

but a little more challenging with very tasty items like raw beef hearts.
Yet I ask Muttley to sit and wait while I put some pieces in his bowl, and
he will do so quite willingly.

You think he PREFERS THAT to bein JERKED
an CHOKED on your CUSTOM MADE PRONGED
SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR, paulie?

LIKE THIS:

paulie wrote:
Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
when you use verbal violence against other dog
owners, thus triggering their own opposition
reflexes. I will try other non-violent methods
that communicate what is expected of the dog.

And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
collar or choker chain are evil and physically
hurtful.

[snip verbal abuse]

So you think it is effective to withold praise,
but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow
your methods? Or promise you will stop beating
them if they obey your commands? Yet never do
it for a dog?

Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered from
Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)

"so now he accuses me of yanking and choking my
dog on a prong collar to force him into obedience,"

----------------

LIKE THIS:

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <***@smart.net> wrote

It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death

"Paul E. Schoen" <***@smart.net> wrote

Hello everyone:

If you have followed some of my posts, you know
something about the ongoing story of Muttley, the
large GSD/Chow dog I have been trying to adopt
or place in a better home.

I will add a bit more history later in this post.

Last Tuesday, toward the end of Janet's obedience
class, Muttley and I had just finished fairly successfully
performing a sit/stay/come routine, and then he was
sitting by my side.

The final routine was to be a "down", which Muttley
has had some difficulty with, and frankly I have not
had the time to work with him much on that.

I was kneeling at his side, trying to hold his collar
while pushing his front legs down to the position,
while he resisted. Suddenly he lunged, knocking
me over onto the parking lot, and I lost grip of the
leash as I reflexively broke my fall.

Muttley took the opportunity to attack a young black
male Lab to my left, and it was a very brutal attack.
Janet and the instructors tried to gain control, and as
soon as I could get to my feet I grabbed the leash and
pulled him off.

That was the end of the class, and the other dog,
Bernie, was taken to an animal hospital for treatment.

When everyone had left, Janet counseled me about
what should be done about Muttley.

She said this was more than ordinary aggression,
and only intensive (and expensive) one on one
training would have any chance at working, and
in any case, he was not suited to group training.

She advised me that Muttley could be dangerous,
and she recommended that he be euthanized.

"They can't all be saved".

<snip>

--------------

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <***@smart.net> wrote

<snip>

If I did not have to worry about my cat, I would
probably keep him, and I am certain I could avoid
any more dangerous episodes. I probably would
not have taken him to obedience classes at this time
if that was not such a difficult issue, and if people
here had not essentially shamed me into doing so.

Then he would only be a bratty dog with a mind of
his own, but he would not have been identified as
dangerous.

--------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!

He will also sit and wait, watching intently, as I eat my portion of steak
or other high value food. He will sometimes get a little excited and lick
the edge of the plate, and
of course he drools on my knee or my foot.

Perhaps you should TRAIN IT, eh, paulie?

LIKE THIS:

Here's janet's REAL LIFE IN PERSON "student" paul:

#2 - 6/05/07

Post by chardonnay9
When I was training him under Janet's supervision
I was instructed to give it a ? firm yank as a correction.

I advised you to use a prong collar, not
give firm yanks on a chain choke collar.
I hate the things.

Post by chardonnay9
She was able to get his attention with just
a quick tug, but I had to yank on it hard enough
to lift him off his feet to get him to respond.
Looking back now, I think it was based on
his fear, which he had for her (as an unknown), but not for me (whom he
had learned to trust).

He wasn't afraid of me. He knew I was a confident
trainer. Fear has no place in dog training, as I told
you THEN. Janet.

It seems to me that applying stern corrections, by
popping a choker chain, prong collar, or whatever,
is a way to ensure compliance by instilling a fear
of further punishment.

Sure, if it is administered very consistently
by a confident trainer, the dog soon learns
to obey. There was no positive reinforcement,
so what remains is negative.

Also, I recall the time you were going to show me
how I could get Muttley to take his rawhide treat
from me without lunging for it. When you offered
it to him, he refused to take it. This IMHO is likely
a fear behavior.

Things have changed a lot since then, and I have
learned a lot, and Muttley has settled down quite
a bit. I probably still give him too much freedom
to think on his own, but that's just my way of
doing things, and that's probably not going to
change much. He may never win an obedience
medal, but I don't think he is dangerously out
of control, either.

Paul and Muttley

"I thought I was told that the way to get the dog to go
down was to make him sit and then step on the leash.
That was awkward and didn't seem to work.

I will confess that I only tried the "down" position
once or twice at home, and I also often used it
instead of "Off" when I wanted him to stop
jumping on me or elsewhere I didn't want him to be.

I had to give him corrections every few seconds,
and also just about kick him, to keep him at my
left side.

Muttley is really a very sweet and loving dog, but
he needs more socialization with other dogs. However,
it is very likely that I will have him put down in a week."

----------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

But I assure him that I will share some with him,
and sometimes I will give him a morsel while I am eating, and then I will
put a few pieces in his
bowl, or just let him lick the plate.

Whatever you PREFER, paulie <{}: ~ ) >

I don't consider this playing games,

Of curse not~!

THIS IS paulie PLAYIN GAMES:

Here's paulie's CUSTOM MADE
pronged spiked pinch choke collar:

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him
a stern correction" --Janet Boss

http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt

"J1Boss" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@mb-m18.aol.com...

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.

Janet Boss

Post by chardonnay9
I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5
with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

I can't remember what model of Innotek I have,
but I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

========

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

SEE?

but just a training opportunity and a way to build trust.

INDEED??

I also have trained Muttley to bring me a marrow
bone that he has worked on for a while, with some marrow still buried too
deep for him to extract. He very gently lets it out of his mouth into my
hand, and I will carve some of the marrow loose with a knife

You think Muttley TRUSTS you with a KNIFE??

"The girl who owned the dog was beating it
with a stick, and I stabbed it in the neck."

and give it back to him. He takes it back a
little too abruptly, but he has never bitten my hand.

LUCKY THING, otherWIZE you'd MURDER IT.

Also, if he is eating and I need to get past him,
I think nothing of asking him to move aside, and
he complies willingly. I can stroke his head or rub his back or even put
my hand in his bowl while he
is eating, with no sign of annoyance.

Naaaah?

HOWE COME you COULDN'T TRUST your
RESCUE dog Muttley with your OPPOSITE
SEX DEAD RESCUE DOG Lucky??

Even my friend Georgie, who has known Muttley
only a short while, was able to take his rawhide chew from him and play
with him.

That so? HOWE COME you COULDN'T TRAIN
IT to be TRUSTWORTHY with your DEAD DOG
Lucky an your DEAD KAT Photon??

So, what's wrong with that?

Ask Lucky an Photon, eh, paulie??

Paul and Muttley

Ahhh, you CAN'T; they're DEAD -- on accHOWENTA
you're a lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASE <{}: ~ ( >

chardonnay9

2009-03-12 02:04:24 UTC

Permalink

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
HOWEDY paul e. schoen you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward
active acute chronic life-long incurable malignant
maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE,

[in response to elegy's remarks about Harvey nipping her when feeding him

She had the dog only 12 days and managed to have him hate her that bad?
Dogs bite for a reason. I guess killing the dog would be preferable to
admitting you've made a dog bite you?

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
Subject: i don't know what to do
From: elegy
Date: Monday, February 26, 2007
homer full-on attacked me tonight. multiple puncture
wounds on my hand, torn pants, dog that kept coming.
he meant it tonight. he meant to hurt
me, not just to say "i don't like this".
i was trying to teach him to down using a lure and
he totally and completely wasn't getting it at all, so
i was trying to physically show him what i wanted.
yeah. guess not.
i don't know what to do.
i have always said that i WILL NOT tolerate a dog who
bites, that i WILL NOT have a dog like that in my house.
it's easy to say when you're not faced with that, eh?

Homer 1994 - 03.01.2007"
brothers and sisters i bid you beware
of giving your heart to a dog to tear

i put homer to sleep yesterday.

it was quite possibly the hardest thing i've ever done.

monday night i was trying to teach him to down using a
food lure. he wasn't getting it, so i put a hand on him to
try to encourage him to down. he attacked me, biting me
twice on the hand, and then when i stood up and backed
away, he came after me more and bit me on the leg as well.

i was shocked and devestated and a hundred other things.

i ended up emailing my trainer (who has
turned out to be a very kind friend) and
she called me and i spent an hour on
the phone with her crying.

she doesn't deal with aggression cases,
but she listened to me and talked me down.

i hardly slept that night.

tuesday i took homer in to work with me and
had the vet feel his neck. i didn't think it was
a reaction due to pain but i had to check it out.

the vet put his hands on the sides of homer's
head and manipulated his head around. homer
didn't show any signs of pain or discomfort. he
went through the motions some more.

homer flipped out, with no warning, extremely
violently. it took him a long time (it felt like a
lifetime. it was probably around 3 minutes) to
calm down enough that the vet could take his
hands off of homer without anybody getting hurt.

i went home for lunch and called a behaviorist.

i spent a lot of the day reading the brenda aloff
aggression book and the karen overall behavior book.

that night the behaviorist called me and i told
her what had happened and she asked questions
and i answered them as best i could.

she gave him a pretty poor prognosis.

everything that she said made sense to me,
and nothing she said was earth-shattering or
even really anything that i didn't already know.

this morning i took him in and held him close
and cried into his fur and told him how much
i love him and let him go.

he was a dangerous dog. he bit unpredictably
and with no warning. he was a love, a snugglebug,
a sweet sweet dog as long as you didn't do anything
he didn't want done.

but if you tried to "make" him do something
he didn't want to do, all bets were off. his
reaction could be a snap or it could be an
over-the-top meltdown.

i couldn't live with a dog like that.

i *will not* live with a dog like that.

i've spent the last three days crying my eyes out.

i never imagined i could get that attached to a
dog who i had for all of 12 days and who bit me
several times during those12 days.

but i was. i loved him.

i loved him ferociously, but i had to let him go.

for his sake.

for my sake.

for the sake of luce and mushroom.

i feel horrible. heartbroken. guilty. angry.

and yet i don't regret him, not for one
moment, despite how things turned out.

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-15 13:03:16 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY mikey dufort a.k.a. pat, a.k.a. unsurreality a.k.a.
black vomit a.k.a. trollbasher, you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin animal murderin child an spHOWES abusin punk
thug coward active acute chronic life-long INCURABLE
Malignant MaliciHOWES MENTAL CASE and professional
dog trainin FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,

paulie is a pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
murderin MENTAL CASE an CONGENITAL COWARD,
like you, mikey <{}: ~ ( >

HERE'S HOWE COME:

Subject: Muttley: Now a questi"I have a very vivid
and terrible memory of the time when my dog was
viciously attacked by a larger dog in the woods near
our house.

The girl who owned the dog was beating it
with a stick, and I stabbed it in the neck.

Both dogs survived, but after that, I always
carried a stout stick with me when walking
our dog.

This was back in the 60s, when leash laws
were very lax or non-existent, and before
everybody was lawsuit crazy, and when the
few drug dealers and thugs in the few bad
areas of town were deathly afraid of all big
dogs," paul e. schoen.

--------------------------

SEE?

HERE'S HOWE COME:

paulie wrote:

Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
when you use verbal violence against other dog
owners, thus triggering their own opposition
reflexes. I will try other non-violent methods
that communicate what is expected of the dog.

And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
collar or choker chain are evil and physically
hurtful.

[snip verbal abuse]

So you think it is effective to withold praise,
but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow
your methods? Or promise you will stop beating
them if they obey your commands? Yet never do
it for a dog?

Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered from
Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)

"so now he accuses me of yanking and choking my
dog on a prong collar to force him into obedience,"

(See, I give praise!) (but not for bad behaviors...)

----------------

SEE?

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

[in response to elegy's remarks about Harvey
nipping her when feeding him

She had the dog only 12 days and managed
to have him hate her that bad?

Actually, Homer FEARED, more than HATED his abuser;
same same for elegy's DEAD RESCUE dog Harve <{}: ~ ( >

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
Dogs bite for a reason. I guess killing the dog
would be preferable to admitting you've made
a dog bite you?

Suggestion: get some Vaseline. It's a good lubricant.

It's for SISSYS, mikey; ask your PAL mikey ball a.k.a.
andrea beck, who's PREYIN his sex change operation
won't interfere with him goin to EUTHANASIA TECHNICIAN
school so's IT can MURDER dogs for the "shelter" he
volunteers at on accHOWENTA he's on SSI MENTAL
DISABILITY and incapable of earning a livin, like you:

"Howe has cost me a lot over the years since potential
employers would do a search on my book and find Howe's
lies all over the place," mike dufort, aka pat aka unsurreality
aka HAIRY STINKY CA CA BUTT IMBECILE aka big
hairy bean bag aka MiserableOldCrab <dontbothermeyou
braindead @ssholefuckyou.invalid>, the anonymHOWES
pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal child an
spHOWES abusin punk thug coward active acute chronic
life-long incurable mental case and professional dog trainin
FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST.

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

AND HERE'S HOWE COME, mikey:

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"CourteHOWES Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"

SEE?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

---------------------

SEE, mikey??

He's a chronically unemployable ignorameHOWES
lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASE, like you; michael
ball a.k.a. andrea beck, is a pathetic miserable despicable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward chronic
life long incurable malignant maliciHOWES manic depressive mental case and
rejected pre-op TRAINsexul self cutting
psychopath who "works" for a KILL SHELTER in order to
get FOOD for his neurotic fear aggressive dogs an wants
to IMPROVE his position by learnin HOWE to MURDER
dogs for them:

LIKE THIS:

Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary
From: Michael A. Ball <***@wireco.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:08:20 -0400

Subject: Euthanasia certification classes?

Who teaches euthanasia certification classes in
most states? I live in Tennessee. Are the classes
usually open to anyone with the fee?

How much is the fee apt to be?

The shelter wants to keep me cleaning kennels the
rest of my life, but I would like to expand my capabilities.

Thank you.
________________________
Whatever it takes.

--------------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Newsgroups: alt.fifty-plus.friends
From: Michael A. Ball <***@wireco.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:52:34 -0400

Subject: Re: Superstitious?(sp)

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:43:24 GMT,

Care to tell us why you feel that way?
I won't try and argue with you or change
your mind, but what happened to put you
off cats above all other creatures?

I've never liked cats, because their movements are too
much like those of rats. Since childhood, I viewed cats
as no more than targets.

On 12-23-95, I killed a cat that my wife had allowed her
daughter to bring into the house, as a pet, several days
earlier. The cat was a stray and having it in the house
was contrary to our agreement for living here.

My wife moved out , permanently, that night.

Ten months later, she moved out of this county--deliberately
withholding her new address. I haven't heard from her since.

Thank you for not trying to change my mind. I won't argue
about this issue. Many people hate cats; perhaps most of
them are more discrete about voicing their opinions. I
try not to say much, but sometimes, I can't resist.

Michael
Whatever it takes.

----------------

Newsgroups: alt.fifty-plus.friends
From: Michael A. Ball <***@wireco.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:27:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Superstitious?(sp)

On 03 Oct 2003 00:12:27 GMT,

I am glad that I know this about you...what
you did was sick and creepy and I'll waste
no more time on you.

Well, I have plenty of time, and I don't
mind wasting a bit more of it on You.

I'd like to tell you a little story. When I met Victoria,
she used marijuana and had lost custody of her four daughters.

We met at work, began to care about one another and eventually married. We
were very poor: I rode a bicycle
to work, rain or shine. At the time we met, Victoria could
not prove who she was.

She had no birth certificate, no driver's license,
no education, no self esteem, etc.

We regained custody of her daughters, actually the only one
not married by then was 11 year old, Jennifer. Victoria got
some counseling, began taking GED classes, got her driver's
license and an insured car. Later, she joined the church
choir, corrected her credit and obtained a credit card.

Eventually, we accepted a job managing this Hospital Guest
House. The house is on federal property so it is very safe.
Our living area is double was it previously was. All utilities
are furnished and there is no maintenance. This arrangement
is far superior to anything we could have imagined.

One stipulation placed on us was that Victoria's existing cat
could be the only pet allowed. Because Victoria felt obligated
to provide Jennifer's every request, as a way of making up for
lost time, she allowed Jennifer to keep the stray cat in the house.

I wasn't about to let this spoiled brat
jeopardize such a grand living arrangement.

Victoria considered me verbally and emotionally abusive,
and killing the illegal cat was the final straw. Since I had
helped turn her life around, she had the means to move out.

That was almost eight years ago; and I am still managing
this house. So, I reckon I must have some degree of compassion--and probably
not as "sick and creepy" as
you'd like to believe.

You can call my action "sick and creepy", but I call
it preserving an unimaginable opportunity for us.

By the way, do you really think your little attitude would
mean anything to a person like me? LOL! Oh, I shouldn't
have asked: seeing how you'll waste no more time on me.

Pleasant dreams,
Michael
Whatever it takes.

-------------------

Looks like you've become your own CRUEL step-father,
eh, michael? Is THAT HOWE COME you want a sex
change operation, mikey?:

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

HOWEDY michael aka michelle aka andrea beck,
you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin
punk thug coward active accute chronic life long
incurable mental case and pre-op TRAINsexual who
couldn't qualify for sexual reassignment surgery on
accHOWENTA your PSYCH DOC SEZ you'll STILL
HATE YOURSELF even if he makes you a woman,

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

The next step is to make their mouth on your skin
uncomfortable, but I'll let the more knowledgeable
pit bull people address that one.

matty means the Pit Bull dog lovers who MURDER
their own dogs on their first grHOWEL at a human.

Like HOWE you do, michael.

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
I wouldn't call myself a knowledgeable
Pit Bull person, but,

But shelly IS a proven lyin animal abusin
obsessive compulsive manic depressive
mental case, as are matty and yourself.

Post by Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
I had a mouthy Pit mix puppy who did *not*
get the idea that being bitten wasn't fun for
humans. Whenever he'd bite me, I'd fold his
lower lip over onto his teeth...

MHOWETHING is a BONDING behaivor, michael.
HURTIN the dog for MHOWETHING will make IT
fearful and aggressive.

You know HOWE mentally ill REJECTION made you.
HOWE COME would you WANT to do that to a DOG?:/

Subject: "Secret Cutting"
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Tues, May 30 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Michael Ball" <***@wireco.net>

The movie, "Secret Cutting" airs tonight at
9:00 p.m. eastern, on USA Network.

-----------

Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Mon, Dec 27 1999 12:00 am

Howard Hong wrote,

"If I wanted more of this feeling, then
it would probably be a pleasure, no?"

I almost replied, "WRONG!," and offered this explanation:
I sometimes makes little cuts under my watchband, with a
razor blade.

Although there is some physical pain, I feel triumphant
because Michael Ball is getting a little dose of what he
deserves. So, it is a pleasure.

How odd; even sensations that most people would rate as
bad, sick, horrible, etc., can be and are pleasures--if
we want them. I never thought of those insignificant
little cuts specifically as pleasures, but they are!

I love it when little streams of blood trickle down my arm.
And I like the reminder pain over the following couple of
days, during the healing process.

------------

Subject: Prozac
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball - view profile
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2000 12:00 am

Prozac affects everyone differently. Please, don't allow
other's Prozac experiences to influence you too much.

I take another medicine that makes me tired; so, I can't
attribute fatigue to Prozac. FWIW, fatigue is a common
complaint. I don't believe Prozac has any effect on one's
immune system. In my humble opinion, Tabasco Sauce and
jalapeno peppers are far more effective than any flu shot!
:-) I haven't had a cold in years. :-)

Wait a minute! A cat lover!?

Oh, well, I suppose someone has to...

(((K))) I hope you're doing well today.

Michael

-------------

SEE, mikey?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Oh, bye the bye, mikey, The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand
Master Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret,
Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Training Method Manual Forums
And Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences
Research Laboratory Archives are FAMILY newsgroups.

Please post apupriately <{}: ~ ) >

You will need something on your lips

Your mental case lyin animal murderin pal mikey ball
prefers SMEGMA, like your punk thug coward mental
case pal ed w of PETLOSS dot COIN <{}: ~ ) >

after kissing Howe's ass so much

I'd recommend a "ball gag", mikey <{}: ~ ) >

for whatever fucked up reason.

That "FUCKED UP REASON" just might be that
Chardonnay9 an HOWE DON'T MURDER innocent
defenseless dumb critters an LIE abHOWET it like
HOWE you an your MENTAL CASE PALS prefer <{}: ~ ( >

Oh, bye the bye, mikey, this should be your
LAST POST
to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End
Training Method Manual Forums And
Human And Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory <{}: ~ ) >

WOULDN'T YOU AGREE, mikey?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-08 04:47:18 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY paul e. schoen you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward
active acute chronic life-long incurable malignant
maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE,

"Paul E. Schoen" <***@smart.net> wrote in message news:49b32dbd$0$21585$***@news.coretel.net...

<SNIP IDIOCY>

<RESUME IDIOCY>

That sounds possible. Now to determine how he might be getting a
recurrance. Maybe it's being carried by other animals in the household who
might not have such symptoms. And maybe the
stresses experienced by the older dog contribute to the flare-ups.

You mean dale's dog got The Puppy
Wizard's Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >

Hopefully the antibiotics will continue to help, and maybe you can reduce
the possible sources
of reinfection.

There IS an element of infectiHOWES DIS-EASES
which can CAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS that probably
infests several of HOWER most erratic mentally ill
fellHOWE dog lovers <{}: ~ ( >

LIKE THIS:

From the article http://newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james16.htm
"Cognitive dysfunction and chronic emotional
stress with symptoms of apathy, exhaustion,
confusion, poor appetite, memory loss, nervous
stomach, social withdrawal, loss of sex drive
and motivation are often attributed to depression
when they were actually caused by infection.

Many parasitic infections escape diagnosis because standard stool parasite
studies pick up only 10 % of
active infections. At times this is caused by inconsistent shedding
patterns and other cases are missed because the parasites are outside the
intestine.

The World Health Organization states that 2 billion
people have worms but these are rarely seen in stool exams. Many
restaurants are staffed by persons from foreign lands where parasites are
common so exposure
to parasitic infection can occur in most U.S. restaurants.

To overcome these failures the Research Institute
for Infectious Mental Illness suggests ova and parasite microscopy,
multifluid antigen and antibody detection, stool cultures, enzyme
immunoassays, imaging techniques, and extensive evaluation of the patients
history and clinical information to discover chronic infections.

Patients diagnosed as chronic candidiasis (yeast)
may actually have more significant infections which
are preventing long term cure.

Curing hidden infections often results in return
of normal brain metabolism. Fever and antibody
elevation often disappear in patients with neurotoxin
injury to the immune system and thyroid hypofunction caused by hypothalamic
toxicity.

Rebuilding the host's immune system and restoring integrity of the
intestines will help prevent relapse.

Care to not provide premature nutritional supplements
that are growth factors for certain microorganisms is vital. Screening
tests for heavy metal toxicity, environmental chemical exposure, molds,
electromagnetic stressors, abnormal glucose metabolism, brain allergies,
food sensitivities, hormone imbalances, neurotransmitter imbalances,
nutritional deficiencies, ph abnormalities,
and dietary correction can improve cognitive function.

In my opinion the arguments about the failure to
diagnose infections causing brain symptoms
presented by Frank Strick are persuasive and sound.

Most psychiatric consultations almost certainly are notconcerned with
exploring diagnostic considerations outside the psychiatric realm. This
whole field of psychiatric diagnosis needs to be reconsidered in view
of the strong evidence that toxoplasmosis, parasitic infections, borrelia
burgdorfi, candida, borna disease virus, streptococcus, and other infectious
agents are capable of producing impaired brain function with symptoms that
will generate a psychiatric diagnosis
in a conventional psychiatrist's office.

There is a real possibility that many, perhaps most patients, have an
infectious illness that is correctable
not a permanent psychiatric impairment.

This failure to discover infectious causes for psychiatric symptoms is
tragic because many persons are vegetating in psychiatric facilities for the
remainder of their lives, instead of recovering full health when their
infection is cured.

My suggestion to readers is to consider exploring a consultation with the
Research Institute for Infectious Mental Illness before accepting a
psychiatric diagnosis that is likely to lead to a lengthy and minimally
effective therapy."

-------------------------------

See?

Good luck with the old fellow!

"Luck", paulie?

Paul and Muttley

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

paulie wrote:

Your non-violent methods for dogs ring hollow
when you use verbal violence against other dog
owners, thus triggering their own opposition
reflexes. I will try other non-violent methods
that communicate what is expected of the dog.

And I don't believe that proper use of a prong
collar or choker chain are evil and physically
hurtful.

[snip verbal abuse]

So you think it is effective to withold praise,
but offer it as a bribe to get people to follow
your methods? Or promise you will stop beating
them if they obey your commands? Yet never do
it for a dog?

Paul and Muttley (almost fully recovered from
Arbitrary Praise Neurosis)

"so now he accuses me of yanking and choking my
dog on a prong collar to force him into obedience,"

(See, I give praise!) (but not for bad behaviors...)

----------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

2009-03-08 06:14:49 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY matty you pathetic miserable stinkin
lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic life long incurable mental case
and professional illegal doggy day care / agility
trainin FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,

How do you manage pills and special diets in
a multi-dog household where the dogs don't wait
for their meals?

I train them to do so.

INDEED?

And swallow a THOWESAND DOLLER squeaky
toy *(including surgery) and rip you off for your bag
of cookies and bite you on your limp wrist, JUST
LIKE HOWE your "student" in "agility class" done
to you, remember matty, you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin MENTAL
CASE?:

From: "The Puppy Wizard" <***@EarthLink.Net>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:38:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Puppy Temper Tantrums...

HOWEDY matty,

To put a dollar value on it: A "drop it"
command would have saved an acquaintance
a $1000 surgery bill on her lab.

That so?

Seems the DROP IT command happens AFTER
the dog has TAKEN the FORBIDDEN FRUIT.

Said lab (not a puppy) wouldn't give up a
squeaky and, when presented with a treat
in exchange,

You mean as a BRIBE to release what IT got
in ITS MHOWETH that YOU WANT MOORE
than the stinkin weenie you're offerin IT in
EXXXCHANGE?

EVEN A DOG GOT MOORE BRAINS than
to fall for THAT kinda IDIOCY.

made the decision to swallow the toy

As ANY critter would, being PURSUED by
a COMPETITOR, dog lovers. What do you
EXXXPECT a dog to do when you're fixin
to STEAL his BHOWENTY.

and then grab and swallow the treat bag.

THAT'S what The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
been TELLIN you bums in HIS N.I.L.I.F. Posts.

REMEMBER, matty?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ the dog is
fixin to tell yout to SHOVE IT and RIP YOU
OFF for your weenies and FIGHT you if you
offer a protest.

THAT'S HOWE COME your stinkin N.I.L.I.F.
program GETS SOME DOGS DEAD, matty.

I'm very sorry for what must have been a terrible
scare for your friend as well the risk to the dog,

MOST of HOWER DOG LOVERS here abHOWETS
have BEEN THROUGH the SAME SAME SAME SAME
for the SAME SAME SAME SAME REASON.

THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard
goes "BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!"

REMEMBER NHOWE, matty, you lying dog
abusing punk thug coward MENTAL CASE?

BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!

Was this a trick question?

Yeah. The TRICK is HOWE COME would these EXXXPERTS set their INFORMATIVE
POSTS
to EXXXPIRE in six days like HOWE matty a.k.a.
Rocky, elegy, montana, diddler, professora melanie
chang, cindy title moore of k9web.com, marquis de
"READ KOEHLER FOR CONTENT" shaw and not
so happy, not so handsome, not so gentle jackass,
not even jack morrison, a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN a.k.a. tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retriever PUPPY MILL and SHOCK COLLAR
SALES, prefer??

Are they EMBARRASSED by their own words,
the PATHETIC MISERABLE STINKIN ROTTEN
LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN PUNK THUG COWARD
ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LIFE-LONG INCURABLE
MENTAL CASES FRAUDS an SCAM ARTISTS?

LIKE THIS:

From: Rocky <***@rocky-dog.com.invalid>
Date: 24 Jul 2004 04:00:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?

Everything he preaches is very positive, no
correction, no punishment, all praise and love.

You are very wrong.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Kill Fire?????? Is this a special block sender?

Killfile. Yes - it stops you from seeing
messages that you don't want to see.

Can you give me the idiots guide to this?

http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/OE_FAQ_newsgroups.html
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

------------------

LIKE THIS:

From: Rocky <***@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 02:40:42 GMT
Subject: Re: house training

I dont like the insinuations that i am
abusing my dog when i am NOT.

Then you may want to ignore the
Puppy Wizard/Jerry Howe.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <***@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Aug 2002 18:40:54 GMT
Subject: Re: training a dog...

The pressure meant a GOOD possibility if she
could just push up hard enough, I'd understand.
I did eventually <G>.
I switched to a light tap!

Yup, once a dog learns to sit, a light tap
works as a reminder when they "forget".
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

But "NEVER HIT your dog", eh, matty?

tommy wrote:

From: ***@i1.net (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11

Subject: Re: Koehler's Usefulness-
-A Concluding Assessment

This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has
TOTALLY refused to engage me in debate,
preferring mudslinging, hyperbole, distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely
out of context, instead.

What lying hypocrites these hand-wringers are!

The most consistent argument among Koehler's
defenders is based on a questionable assumption
that such "drastic" measures are effective in
"extreme" cases where other methods fail.

------------------------

SEE?

matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:

"Rocky" <***@rocky-dog.com> wrote

For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

---------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

SEE?

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: "Nevyn" <***@badmama.com.au>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:05:45 +0800

Subject: Re: puppy wizzards training manual.

G'DAY STEVE.

I used to be like you.

Then I found a book...it was called... the
wits end dog training manual.... and then
there was light..and perfectly trained dogs.
--
Thankyou,
Nevyn
Nevyn E.D.
Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer
***@badmama.com.au

"Yu agonna get whats comin' to you...for
all the bad bad things you to do your...dog"

________________________

Hello, Mr. puppy wizzard, how do i find a copy
of your manual.
Do you have a link that takes me to it?
I think i would like to read it. Now i have
another question for you in regards to walking
your dog. How do you feel about the gentle
leader? I bought one for each of my pups and
the difference in walking them is unbelievable.
If you are not sure what the gentle leader is
check out their web site at www.premier.com.
If you are as good as you say you are i want
to read your manual. thanks,
Steve
P.s. by the way my pup doesnt pee as soon as i put
him in his crate its after he's been in for a while and
cant hold it anymore that he pee's

Howdy, jerry, well i started reading your manual, Im
going to perfectly honest with you I thought last night
when i started reading your posts you were full of crap
but the more i read the more i could tell that you really
do care about dogs.
That is why asked for a copy of your manual.
I really like your analogy on barking that was very
interesting and gave it a perspective i never even
thought of.
As far as your praising the dogs when they are
misbehaving i still dont understand how that works
(i didnt get all that far in the manual yet. But i must
say my female was clawing at the couch so i praised
her like you say to do, i praised her twice for it and
she stopped and came over to me.
So i think what you have to say has merit, And for one
am anxious to finish the book and get started because
i love my dogs and really am looking forward to
interacting with them on a positive note all of the time.
This may be a little premature jerry, but Thank you
Steve

------------------

Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug
coward mental cases too much credit for the ability
to influence

Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just
BAITING these lying dog abusing punk thug
coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >

You really are a piece of work.

INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS in her FREE COPY
of The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual and REPORTED her
100% NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE
on The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL
Of HARD KNOCKS And HUMAN And ANIMAL
BEHAVIOR RESEARCH LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >

You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >

Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?

Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS,
matty, JUST LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL
dog Rocky is DYIN from STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy
Wizard's
SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog
abusin punk thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty,
and you can't post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

When you compare using sound and
praise to solve a problem with using
shock collars, hanging, and punishment
how can you criticize the use of sound?

There's nothing more to be said, then.
You've made up your mind.
But you've impressed me by mentioning
that you're a professor with 30 years of
experience.

So, can you cite some examples of
people recommending "shock collars,
hanging, and punishment"?
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
will often make the dog either aggressive
or a fear biter, neither of which we want
to do.

And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
No matter what Jerry Howe states.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the
doubt, please provide a quote (an
original quote, not from one of Jerry
Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
shows a regular poster promoting or
using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
So, can you cite some examples of
people recommending "shock collars,
hanging, and punishment"?
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
which you have read so many. While you're going
through them, point out those which recommend
shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
--
-Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
would be the point? Where I come from, choking
is choking. It's never limited.

So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
Thank you for your contribution.
-
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (***@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the
leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.

Anybody else got bilingual dogs?

Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I
only use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when
it's reallyreally important that my dogs get away from
something.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * ***@lppi.ucsf.edu
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

From: Rocky <***@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior

One of the things that frustrates me the most about
agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be
corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take
correction so much to heart -- I'll try something
different. Right now, he's just getting the confidence
to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but
only when I'm gone during summertime days -
maybe an hour at the most. (Other than hot days,
my dogs are always with me.)

While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised
from the day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not.

Rocky will go looking for food even in areas where
there's no possibility of food.

The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <***@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message news:***@rocky-dog.com...

Subject: Re: New Puppy. Need Help. Separation anxiety.

As a start, crate her in your bedroom at night. At three months
old, I wouldn't label her need for companionship as separation
anxiety.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Subject: Re: Dog sleeping in own urine and eating feces!
PLEASE HELP!!!

I have tried crate training. I feel that I can't do it
because he literally urinates all over himself, and
needs baths throughout the day.

What is your understanding of crate training?

I'll tell you mine. With a puppy, a crate is a place to leave
a puppy for a couple of minutes - you happily take him
directly out of it to the outside to pee and poo. If he does,
it's time for a party. If he doesn't, it's back into the
crate for a couple of minutes, then some play, and then back
outside.

Initially, crates are good for safety, perceived security by
the dog, short-term supervision when you can't directly
supervise, and as part of an acclimation process to a brand
new and scary home. Later, they're good for safe car travel,
overnights at the vet, and airplane transportation.

Let it be known that the maximum amount of time
I left my puppy in the crate was 30 minutes, and 1
hour throughout the night.

Only one hour at night? That's good - night time is the best
time to let a dog get used to his new home, though I'd do this
after he's used to his crate.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

matty wrote:

"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but only when
I'm gone during summertime days - maybe an hour at the most.
(Other than hot days, my dogs are always with me.)

While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised from the
day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not. Rocky will go
looking for food even in areas where there's no possibility of
food.

The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Subject: "Read any good books, lately?"
From: Rocky
Date: Tues, Apr 4 2000 12:00 am

Interesting. In the past, Rocky has enjoyed the
classics, most notably a 150 year old leather-bound
edition of the "Count of Monte Cristo".

It was slow going at first, but once he
got into it he couldn't put it down.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

Re: Crate training questions...

One day you may do better than your poor three week
benchbark. Keep at it, keep learning, and keep an open
mind.

It really does depend on the dog. I've housebroken dogs
in 1-2 weeks; Zipper took 4 months of hard slog. A lot of
it is being organized and hyper aware of the dog at all times.

I agree. I thought that the post I was responding to was
somewhat condescending, so I did the same. I should have
stopped my reply after the first paragraph.

Still, I think that Antares should keep an open mind
towards crates. Heck, we still haven't gotten into all
their other wonderful uses.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Re: Crate training questions...

Given the total freedom of the house and total access
to me, my dogs slept all day, sometimes in their crates.
Oh yeah, crating them during the day is so cruel!
Why, it forces them to, um, do what they were doing anyway?

And they got up and stretched, looked out the window,
etc, and then went back to sleeping, right?

Uncrated, my crated dog may have done all those things.
Balance missing those activities vs. the resulting lack of
distruction (and potential danger) and all of the activities
we did outside of Monday to Friday 8 to 5.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

You may want to move the crate into your bedroom.
Being "near" and "next to" are very different things.

Actually I would if I could, but there isnt room.

Make room, even if the dresser or a side table has to
go away for a while. This is an important bonding time.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

HOWEDY matty,

I have two dogs and my English Setter has been
eating feces, both his own as well as my other dog's
feces. On walks, he will eat other dog's feces as well.

This is very common.

Yeah. It's a NEUROTIC behavior LEARNED from bein
LOCKED IN A CRATE or PUNISHED for shittin in the
HOWES, matty.
Your own dog GOT THE SAME PROBLEM, REMEMBER matty?

Immediately pick up the poo in the areas
over which you have control.

You mean, INSTEAD of just TRAINING the dog NOT TO EAT
SHIT, in a couple moments of using non physical praise, matty?

On walks, keep him on a leash and pay attention.

THAT NEVER WORKS, matty.

Try a different food.

THAT'S INSANE, matty.

For what it's worth,

"What it's WORTH" is YOU GOT NO ADVICE.

Your own DEATHLY ILL DOG Rocky GOT THE SAME
PROBLEM on accHOWENT of you ABUSE him, matty.

"What it's WORTH" are DEATHLY ILL and DEAD DOGS, matty.

no matter the reason he started eating poo,

You got NO METHOD to TRAIN the dog NOT TO DO IT, matty.

he now likes it and it's become a habit you have to break.

You got any TRAININ suggestions, matty?

You probably won't have to keep him on leash forever,

You think the dog will FORGET to eat poo when IT can't be
forced and jerked and choked not to do that someMOORE?

just until you've taught a good recall or a good "leave it."

HOWE is THAT gonna TRAIN the dog NOT TO EAT SHIT, matty?

My Rocky was/is a poo eater,

SHAAAZZZAAAMMM?

though now only when it's winter frozen or sun dried -

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

both are avoidable situations.

HOWE, matty?

HOWE do you AVOID FROZEN / DRIED SHIT, matty?

As to watching your Setter on a 24/7 basis, of
course that's not possible in most situations,

So you LOCK THE DOG IN A BOX, matty.

but your *care* should be 24/7.

That so?

That is, when he's not supervised, he should be
in a situation where he can't do what you don't
want him to do.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Marshall Dermer" <***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:e55s2t$40t$***@uwm.edu...

Amen Brother Matt!! :-)

--Marshall

So, guess what troll, you may have inadvertantly
helped someone for a change, despite your best efforts.

Yeah. Sometimes that can't be heelped, like EATIN POOP
and masturbating on your couch pillows, warta.matt:

From: Marshall Dermer
Date: Tues, Dec 21 1999 12:00 am
Email: ***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
In article <tfR74.1$***@typhoon3.tampabay.rr.com>
"Jerry Howe"

Lemme aks you sumthin, doc? When you punish
your dog, do you find that he masturbates more
frequently after such instances? (referring to your
post about your dog using a pillow to get himself off)

First, I punish behavior, not dogs.

Second, I rarely issue corrections.

Third, as time goes on my dog uses the pillow less frequently.
I would say he uses it about once a month. Finally, I'm not really
concerned about my dog's masturbating; I don't find such dog
behavior offensive.

Eating dog poop, for me, is another story.

And the rate of that behavior has
also diminished with time. :-)

--Marshall

Here's FIVE cases of COPROPHAGIA
CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASES PREFER.

<SNIP CASE HISTORIES>

From: Rocky (***@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume
that you are suggesting that the people knee the
dog in the chest. If that's what you meant, just
say it, instead of beating around the bush to avoid
criticism from people like me. That kind of crap has
got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods
of dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
cases causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

=============

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA~!~!~!

HOWE COME would matty set his INFORMATIVE POSTS
to EXXXPIRE in six days? Is he EMBARRASSED by his own
words, that lyin animal abusin punk thug coward mental case
fraud an SCAM ARTIST?

matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:

"Rocky" <***@rocky-dog.com> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

----------------

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (***@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn CONtinues:

"My last paying "job" was as Exec. Dir.
of the local Humane Society, I used to
work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one
shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:***@TeraNews>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.

In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.

Which one is it?

-----------------------------

WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!

Are you beginin to see a common theme here??

EVERY POSTER HERE IS A DOG ABUSER AND / OR
MENTAL CASE.

AND IF THEY DENY IT THEY'RE A LIAR

ON ACCHOWENTA I GOT IT ALL
INDELLIBLY ARCHIVED
IN THEIR OWN WRITTEN WORDS

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